Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[Jeff-Groves]

Saddam Hussein had no clue about the Stealth Aircraft the USA had WAY BACK THEN!
Does anyone believe there's not anything flying now that is beyond that technology?

[Rockstar]

INTERNATIONAL
Explained: The crisis in Ukraine’s Donbass region
Uma Purushothaman

FEBRUARY 22, 2022 09:22 IST
UPDATED: FEBRUARY 22, 2022 11:00 IST

https://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...le65071140.ece

….What has changed now is that the shelling has intensified since last October when Russia began amassing troops along the borders with Ukraine. If the situation in the Donbass escalates, the possibility of a war cannot be dismissed. One way to prevent the outbreak of a war would be to implement the Minsk agreements immediately, as Russia has suggested.

There are two Minsk agreements, Minsk 1 and Minsk 2, named after the Belarussian capital Minsk where the talks were held. Minsk 1 was written in September 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, i.e. Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) with mediation by France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format. Under Minsk 1, Ukraine and the Russia-backed rebels agreed on a 12-point ceasefire deal, which included prisoner exchanges, delivery of humanitarian assistance, and the withdrawal of heavy weapons. However, due to violations by both sides, the agreement did not last long.

Following this, as the rebels moved further into Ukraine, in February 2015, representatives of Russia, Ukraine, the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and the leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk signed a 13-point agreement , now known as the Minsk 2 accord. The new agreement had provisions for an immediate cease-fire, withdrawal of heavy weaponry, OSCE monitoring, dialogue on interim self-government for Donetsk and Luhansk, in accordance with Ukrainian law, and acknowledgement of special status by parliament, pardon and amnesty for fighters, exchange of hostages and prisoners, humanitarian aid, constitutional reform in Ukraine including decentralisation, with specific mention of Donetsk and Luhansk, elections in Donetsk and Luhansk, withdrawal of foreign armed formations, military equipment, mercenaries, full Ukrainian Government control throughout the conflict zone and calls to Ukraine to restore control of state borders, etc.

THE GIST

Since Moscow invaded and annexed the Crimean Peninsula in March 2014, pro-Russia rebels in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions began seizing territory in Eastern Ukraine and held a referendum to declare independence from Ukraine. Since then, these regions within Ukraine have been witnessing skirmishes between the rebels and Ukrainian forces leading to the loss of over 14,000 lives, creating around 1.5 million registered Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) and destruction of the local economy. This shelling has intensified since last October when Russia began amassing troops along the borders with Ukraine.
There are two Minsk agreements, Minsk 1 and Minsk 2. Minsk 1 was written in September 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, i.e. Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE with mediation by France and Germany. Under Minsk 1, Ukraine and the Russia-backed rebels agreed on a 12-point ceasefire deal, which due to violations by both sides, did not last long.
In February 2015, representatives of Russia, Ukraine, the OSCE and the leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk signed a 13-point agreement, now known as the Minsk 2 accord. However, the provisions under the agreement have not been implemented because of the ‘Minsk Conundrum’. Russia believes that the agreement asks Ukraine to grant the Russia-backed rebels in Donbas comprehensive autonomy and representation in the central Government. Only when this is done will Russia hand over control of the Russia-Ukraine border to Ukraine. Ukraine, on the other hand, feels that Minsk 2 allows it to first re-establish control over Donbas, then give it control of the Russia-Ukraine border, then have elections in the Donbas, and a limited devolution of power to the rebels. Ukraine believes the accord supports its sovereignty fully while Russia believes it only gives Ukraine limited sovereignty. Thus, the Minsk 2 agreement has been rightly criticised for being too hastily drafted, ambiguous and contradictory, making it difficult to implement.
However, these provisions have not been implemented because of what is popularly known as the ‘Minsk Conundrum’. This essentially means that Ukraine and Russia have contradictory interpretations about the agreement, particularly about when each part of the agreement is to be fulfilled. Russia believes that the agreement means that Ukraine has to grant the Russia-backed rebels in Donbas comprehensive autonomy and representation in the central Government, effectively giving Russia a veto over Ukraine’s foreign policy. Only when this is done is Russia ready to hand over control of the Russia-Ukraine border to Ukraine. Ukraine, on the other hand, feels that Minsk 2 allows it to first re-establish control over Donbas, then give it control of the Russia-Ukraine border, elections in the Donbas, and a limited devolution of power to the rebels —in that sequence. So, Minsk-2 is ambiguous.

While Ukraine believes the accord supports its sovereignty fully, Russia believes it only gives Ukraine limited sovereignty. Thus, the Minsk 2 agreement has been rightly criticised for being too hastily drafted, ambiguous and contradictory, making it difficult to implement. Moreover, the fact is that Ukraine has been reluctant to implement it for fear of Balkanisation of the country as other regions might also come up with such demands and because any Government which agrees to the kind of autonomy for LPR and DPR that Russia wants will lose domestic support. Russia, on the other hand, wants it to be implemented because it will guarantee protection of the Russian minority and Russian language and culture while increasing its leverage over Ukraine. Its fears about this are justified to some extent because in 2014, the new Ukrainian government had banned Russian as an official language despite almost 30% of its population being native Russian speakers.

Can implementing the Minsk Agreement avert war?

One of the principal demands Russia has made of the West is the immediate implementation of the Minsk 2 agreement.

While the agreement is far from ideal, it could be a baseline from which a diplomatic solution to the current crisis could be found and reviving it could be the ‘only path on which peace can be built’ as French President Emmanuel Macron has said.

For Ukraine, it could help it gain control over its borders and end the threat of a Russian invasion for the time being, while for Russia it could be a way to ensure that Ukraine never becomes a part of NATO and ensure that Russian language and culture are protected under a new federal Constitution in Ukraine.

However, there could be very prolonged negotiations on the type of autonomy the LNR and DPR could get. The latest news about a Biden-Putin summit followed by talks among all relevant parties, might just be the start to dialling back this crisis which could otherwise escalate into a cataclysmic war.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

^ I doubt that Putin takes Biden serious-The US military is another thing and I think Putin respect it.

But a military strength isn't stronger than its civilian part in this case Biden in the White house.

Could be wrong.

Markus

You are right probably, but I meant Biden and US military as a generalization for "USA". Putin from begining on only wanted to talk not with Europe but with the US about Europe. Its a long stratgey of theirs, sicne the co9ld war,. that they want to drive a wedge between the UDS and Europe, and want to weaken the EU by talking to individual European states, not the EU. Trump tried the same: weakening the economic block by wanting to get state to state negotiated treaties, bypassing the EU. Single states are in a weaker position against Moscow or Washington or Bejing, than the whole EU block.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Saddam Hussein had no clue about the Stealth Aircraft the USA had WAY BACK THEN!
Does anyone believe there's not anything flying now that is beyond that technology?

Russia today is not Iraq back then, and Putin is not Saddam. The Russians claim since years they can unmask stealth fighters, and they probably can.



And does anyone think the Russians have no secret even better hypersonic missiles than those they have displayed already? These weapons are worrying. They cannot be intercepted with contemporary technology, and as I see it from public media sources, the Russian ones are currently superior to what America has in this regard.



Russian ATGMs and AAMs are something that absolutely command highest respect and caution, less I red about their toperoedoes and sea missiles, but these also seem to be absolutely capable and fearsome. There is absolutely no excuse for looking down on their weapons. The only question is at what quantities they have them. Next, there is their radar technology. Its in the top league.



And then there is China, which too is not the China of twenty years ago anymore.

[mapuc]

Only a fool would underestimate a countries military will and knowhow.

Markus

[clayton]

Make no mistake where my loyalties lie. The world has had enough of Putin’s despotism.
Like I said earlier—Y’all need to watch what you download.

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Only a fool would underestimate a countries military will and know how.

And History shows that happened Over and Over!
Sad part is Not a single Government learns from THAT History.

[mapuc]

Read following in a Danish newspaper

It's only a part of the article, the rest is behind paywall.

Berlingske(the newspaper) thinks:
Now NATO must open the doors to Ukraine
We have not since the run-up to World War II seen a European superpower act as aggressively towards its neighbors as Russia does now. The West must not settle for weak sanctions this time. There is a need for a massive punishment of Vladimir Putin.

There are those who speak for a Ukrainian NATO membership.

Markus

[Rockstar]

I would think Germany, France, Russia, Ukraine and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) would want to clarify the interpretation and purpose of the those two Minsk agreements THEY came up with. Because it appears everyone has their own ideas of what they mean. Which in my feeble opinion doesn’t do a whole helluva lot of good.

But let’s face it how many times in your life have politicians ever ‘solved’ domestic or foreign policy problems?

[Jimbuna]

Ukraine: What sanctions are being imposed on Russia?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60125659

Absolutely pathetic!

[Jimbuna]

[mapuc]

Did anyone of you watch the press meeting with President Biden ?

I can't decide if it was a strong speech or a weak speech towards Putin Russia.

It sounded weak in my ears.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Down to individual perception.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

When they are all down there, it would be a good idea to advance to Leningrad right now?

[Catfish]

What a joke this is