GER politics thread

[Bilge_Rat]

Actually this is not a Trump issue (even though German politicians are trying to portray it like that to sidestep the fundamental issues). The U.S. political establishment, both democrats and republicans are united on this issue. The policy would not change under a President Biden either.

There is frustation in the U.S. that Germany wants all the benefits of NATO membership without bearing any of the costs:

- Germany wants the U.S. to provide and pay for European defence, even though Germany does not even meet it's 2% defence budget target;

- Germany wants the U.S. to handle all the tough missions, like Afghanistan, Syria/ISIS, Lybia, Ukraine, but won't share in the burden by proving combat troops in combat missions;

Nord Stream 2 is just the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back". If Germany wants the U.S to keep shelling out the big bucks to provide the defence umbrella against an expansionist Russia, they can't then just turn around, put in place NS2 and say, "Oh, it's just business".

The fact that the U.S. Congress is ready on a bi-partisan basis, to do whatever it takes to stop NS2, including putting in place potentially business-destroying sanctions against any European corporation that helps directly or indirectly in finishing the NS2 project should tell you how serious an issue this is for the U.S., since it concerns national security.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Actually this is not a Trump issue (even though German politicians are trying to portray it like that to sidestep the fundamental issues). The U.S. political establishment, both democrats and republicans are united on this issue. The policy would not change under a President Biden either.

And I said that, too, all of that.

There is frustation in the U.S. that Germany wants all the benefits of NATO membership without bearing any of the costs:

And on earlier occasions I agreed with the criticism of the Germans, it drives me crazy myself how my country is acting on this issue. Germany not only violates treaty obligations towards NATO - it even is, by its military capacities now, incapable to live up to its practical military, operational obligations. We cannot field the nu,mber of briagdes and squadrons that we report as ready to Brussels. Like in the late pahse of the seocn world war, we report in parts ghost units who must be recurited in the cas eof the cases from other,. eciosting units. Who then would fall out of the OOB, of course. We report units that are not existent.

- Germany wants the U.S. to provide and pay for European defence, even though Germany does not even meet it's 2% defence budget target;

That accusation is absolutely correct. I often said that myself.

- Germany wants the U.S. to handle all the tough missions, like Afghanistan, Syria/ISIS, Lybia, Ukraine, but won't share in the burden by proving combat troops in combat missions;

By generla pattern that is correct, though on the various nations mentioned the German positions all were varied and a bit more complex. Though always kind of unrealistic ("make words, not wars", "if you make war, dont shoot bullets, dont sweat and dont bleed, but build schools, contruct bridges", "win people's hearts, bribe the regional leaders").

Nord Stream 2 is just the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back".

I cannot comment whether this is the perspective form American side. But Trump forced this single topic, its Trump'S minions benefitting from it, both in business and politics, the governors whose states are strongest in the fracking thing both are Trump followers, and to me money still is the much clearer and better defined motive in all this, not ideals. America finds it difficult to sell its overpriced liquid fracking oil, and that is causing financial fallout for the fracking industry in america. We served you a real friends service on this issue, since many years: we told you again and again: dont frack, its dirty, its expensive, nobody wants to buy it. You did not listen, and now complain. You have no reason to complain now, you ignored the obvious and you ignored our best advice. - One or two years ago, small fracking efforts by germany in the Northsea region were tried, and meanwhile stopped again, AFAIK. Too destructive, not economically efficient.

If Germany wants the U.S to keep shelling out the big bucks to provide the defence umbrella against an expansionist Russia, they can't then just turn around, put in place NS2 and say, "Oh, it's just business".

Again, I kind of agree, the German position on enjoying the benefits from US miltary protection while not keeping up its own ability for selfdefence, is hypocrisy. Nevertheless I am against artificially linking things that have nothing to do with each other. If America thinks it must react to the German - anmd others' - defence budget issue, the reaction can be just one logical reaction: move out and leave Europe's defence to the Europeans themselves. This is what I would do. I could understand it, I would support it, I would appllaude it, because then there is a chance that actually a real European self defence indeed forms up: born out of existential need. Why would Europe form it out, if it lived in paradise 40 years long, and learned that if it does not do its part, America would do it? Reminds me of training young dogs. Consistency is key. Inconsistency and leavign the position of the alpha open for negotiation, brings you into hell'S kitchen, the dog then does what it wants and thinks the place is his.

But its not the cold war anymore, and today the Us has a bigger military interest in staying in germany, than Germany has to get nationally defended by US troops. Regionally, against whom...? Germany is THE logistical hub for US operations around the globe - to Africa, to the ME, even parts of the FE. Nowhrre else outside the US the US has so much invested into building its own infrastructure and training facilties. The biggest logistical base. The biggest military hospital facilities. Drone control, and intel headquarters. The claim that a reallocation of US forces out of German is more hurting for the US than for Germany, is absolutely reasonable and believable. And wopuld cost billions in investement sin the new place. Trumps own military advisers strictly do not want it. And Trump wnated to move parts fo those 12 thousand troops not just to Poland - but to Belgium as well - which has an even bigger gap between the NATO 2% and the actual percentage it invests into the military! Trump wants to punish Merkel. He has a problem with strong women that are more competent than he is, and she rejected him repeatedly diplomatically severla times after she had enough of his impertinent lies and defamations about German economy and its "unfair" acting in the US. She is pissed by him - and that pisses him, although he started the trading of piss.

The fact that the U.S. Congress is ready on a bi-partisan basis, to do whatever it takes to stop NS2, including putting in place potentially business-destroying sanctions against any European corporation that helps directly or indirectly in finishing the NS2 project should tell you how serious an issue this is for the U.S., since it concerns national security.

You - American government - even threatened low ranking regional politicians and their families and mayors of villages with legal persecution around the globe. No, you are completely totally unacceptable in this thing.

We - the EU or Germany - will not fall back over this, not this time, because if we allow you to get away with it, we say good bye to sovereignty claims of national self administration and our claimed - claimed - role on the world stage. We did a lot in the past ten years to diversify european energy imports, and then we should allow you to reverse that, bully us into dependency from a totally disadvantageous arrangement and encourage you to soon blackmails us again? Becasue if we let you succeed with this aggressive behaviour, we would set the precedence that encourages everybody then to do it again: the Europeans always fall back, they always shy away. We cannot afford that on vital existential issues like energy.

The american presumption is one step too much here. I would react to it i reciprocal ways. Freezing all property and financial assets of every senator and congressman who has voted for that bill self-legitimising America as sovereign over European and German energy plicies (like you thgreaten every administrator, regional politicians and mayors and their families to freeze their assets they might held in your reach and at banks you can bully into obedience), and passing an entry ban on them and their families (like yoxu threaten to pass on our affected people and their families). Banning all US companies in the energy sector and all their subcontractors from procurments in the EU. If the US then does not reverse and not offers a return to the conditions before they escalated, but if it thinks it must escalate further, i again would retaliate: banning all stockmarkets in Europe from trading in dollars. Banning all US bonds from getting traded on EU stockmarkets (the norwegian Riksbank did so already many year sago, I think). Penalty taxes on US IT big fives, and farming goods. It takes two to play war. If we burn, I would make you burn with us. And nobody should think one second America could not burn. Your logistics chains and import dependencies make you a formidable target, you copy the late Romans' mistake in these regards, and it is part of the xpalnation fore the collapse of Rome. More so, these actions would trigger inevitably that other big players like Russia and China chime in - and not on your side. They too would see the chance to get rid of the dollar as primary global currency. And if that happens, then the US has a very, very big problem.

I think America is lucky that I have no say io these things. Because my motto is: avoid going easily to war - but if you do: avoid leaving it early.

Also, the past three years have boosted hostility towards America tremendously over here in Europe, or better said: contempt. Even more so after Brexit Johnson's drama show. You cannot allow yourself a psychopath as a head clown in White House for three years and then expect the world not to take notes on your electorate. Because what happened once, can happen again. We will never be as trustful towards you again as we once were. Many more than before Trump do not see America as a friend anymore. The Trump desaster was a bit too significant and destructive as if anyone in Europe will ignore it. Needless to say, Trump fans are an absolute minority over here.

My own thinking about America has turned from "critical but in principle very sympathic" before 2016, to "frosty, potentially hostile" today. Just four years. I am tempted to call it a sociologically failed state. If five or ten years ago somebody would have predicted me I would change my opinion on america this dramatically, I would have laughed him off and away. Maybe I missed the sociological truth, after all its a long distance I look from, several thousand miles. But Trump I did not forsee and could not have imagined.

Here in Germany also is a very huge ammount of bitterness that has build up. Also, it is not the first economic attack and threat in the Trump reign, just the latest in a longer row of escalations, threats and intimdiation attempts. We are sick and tired of this always lying dirtbag defaming everybody else than himself. We would not even nail his skin to the shoe sole of our shoes. It really takes time to bring Brussel so far that it has the nose full of something. Trump managed to acchieve this accomplishment. Bravo! Once again he acchieved right the opposite of what he wanted. "Big deal maker" - wenn ich diesen Stuß schon höre...

Clinton already shifted the American focus away from Europe and to China and Asia. Under Obama it was impossible to not miss that his interets in Europe was even more limited, some would evben say: non-existent. Foreign policy in general was not Obama's primary care. With Trump, the desinterest has turned into open hostility. But then, Trump is desinterested in EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY except himself. He does not even mock about ios voters,m as some suggest. I am sure he doe snot even ntoice their excistence. They are just opieces he moves, becasue he must move pieces to get what he wants. The pieces think he loves him, thinks of them, is one of them. - He does not even take note of them as individual pieces. Like I walk down a street and pass lamp poles.

[Catfish]

^ Skybird stop it, you are beginning to make too much sense

[Skybird]

I began long time ago...


Ther eis one new variable however, and I find it impossible to fully forsee how it will impact: the voirus. It has caused a total desinhibition of inbflating debts, and what this will mean for the money system, how states will react to the collaps eof the FIAT money and exploding debts, is for me impossioble to project. I am not certain that traditional Austrian models on the causes of boom and bust, and inflation, are equipped sufficiently to correctly model and analyse this situation. Thats why lefties came up with NMT, og which I am certain it is the same old Marcxist wine in new bottles. Crypto correncies? Can be banned and criminalised by states if states see their reigmes being eroded by their debt-"money" being avoided (prohibitions).



I will not live in the middle of this century anymore, most likely, I have health factors working against that. But I am not too unhappy about that. Or in toher words: I hope I will die in time. Becasue I think the fjuture will be very grim. Our global race civilization has lived beyond its climax already, I am convinced. One should leave a party when it runs best, a German proverb says. Its already after that.

[mapuc]

(This is an off topic comment)

Reading your comments, where nord stream 2 is mentioned, made me wanna read a special book again.
The Swedish title is Midvintermörker(Midwinter darkness)
Author Lars Wilderäng.

I read it a few years ago and now I can't find the book. It must have been lost during my two moving during the last 3 years.
(There is an audio book version)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...idvinterm-rker

(End of the is an off...)

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I cannot comment whether this is the perspective form American side. But Trump forced this single topic, its Trump'S minions benefitting from it, both in business and politics, the governors whose states are strongest in the fracking thing both are Trump followers, and to me money still is the much clearer and better defined motive in all this, not ideals.

Well the idea that this is : a) a unilateral action by Trump; and b) that this is being done just to sell U.S. Gas to Europe is Russian propaganda. That argument was created by the Kremlin and has been relentlessly pushed by Russian media and German backers of the project.

I can see why that argument would resonate among certain segments of the European population since it appeals to the basest level of anti-American racism. However, I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person who follows world affairs would actually believe that crap.

The U.S. has given trillions of dollars in economic and military aid to Europe since 1945. No one is going to use economic sanctions just to sell gas to Europe.

Anyway, U.S. gas exporters are not really interested in Europe, the market is stagnant and EU economic restrictions and red tape make it too expensive a proposition, the real action is in Asia where the market should expand exponentially over the next 10-20 years.

Killing NS2 is about one thing only, namely collective security as I will explain below.

We - the EU or Germany - will not fall back over this, not this time, because if we allow you to get away with it, we say good bye to sovereignty claims of national self administration and our claimed - claimed - role on the world stage. We did a lot in the past ten years to diversify european energy imports, and then we should allow you to reverse that, bully us into dependency from a totally disadvantageous arrangement and encourage you to soon blackmails us again? Becasue if we let you succeed with this aggressive behaviour, we would set the precedence that encourages everybody then to do it again: the Europeans always fall back, they always shy away. We cannot afford that on vital existential issues like energy.

Well now you are making a "process" argument. That is like a murderer saying he should be let off because of a minor technicality or the CSA arguing the Civil War was really about "States Rights" and had nothing to do with slavery.

You only make a "process" argument when you know the underlying substantive argument cannot be defended.

This is about only one thing, namely Collective Security.

NATO was founded on the principle of Collective Security, namely that a group of countries have a better chance of resisting aggression than if each goes it alone.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014 was the gravest threat to the principle of Collective Security since 1945. We can argue about the causes of the war and who was right or wrong, but Russia's actions, invading Ukraine, annexing Crimea and occupying Eastern Ukraine were clear violations of International Law.

The Russian actions had to be punished and further aggression discouraged, which is why the EU and USA imposed sanctions which are still in place and the EU and the USA gave billions of dollars in economic and military aid to Ukraine.

Completion of Nord Steam 2 undermines the very concept of Collective Security. It will make Russia's position stronger against Ukraine while making Ukraine's position weaker and make it more likely that Russia will eventually achieve its aim in Ukraine. In effect, NS2 will reward Russia for its aggression, making it more likely that it will be emboldened to take similar actions in the future and further undermine European Security.

And why is Germany doing this? Is there a pressing need for Gas that cannot be met any other means? no, all of Western Europe's requirements can be met by existing channels. the only reason why German businesses are pushing the project is because it will make them very rich. In effect, German businessmen would rather be well paid Russian stooges than stand up to Russian aggression and the German government is abetting them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Well the idea that this is : a) a unilateral action by Trump; and b) that this is being done just to sell U.S. Gas to Europe is Russian propaganda. That argument was created by the Kremlin and has been relentlessly pushed by Russian media and German backers of the project.

We see that completely different, and even European nations not friendly on the NS2 project agree with it, we formed that assessment all by oursleves and had not the Kremlin telling us this narration, and we have an overwhelming consensus on that. Consider Trump's history now to unleash economic and trade conflicts and cancel treaties and rise penalty taxes to push his will through and enforce more favourable conditions. The Americans blocking at the WTO. Also consider especially his animosity against Germany, and personally: Merkel. He bashes Germany since he took over. He sent walking explosives as "diplomats" who behaved as if Germany belonged to them, the last "amabassador" is said to have had at least two official meetings with angry government represenatives in berlin where behind the doors they were shouting and yelling because the American stuck his nose into internal German governing things that simply were not his business, he was an arrogant bastard, and Trump wants to send another rabied dog next of whom i already have red a hilarious amount of BS tales dropping from his mouth (thats why he commented a lot on FOX). Wether he gets German accreditation, remains to be seen, too much porcellaine has been broken.

I can see why that argument would resonate among certain segments of the European population since it appeals to the basest level of anti-American racism. However, I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person who follows world affairs would actually believe that crap.

There you are, sorry, "typically American". Fully embedded in your missionary spirit and unable to see things from a non-American perspective. But there is a world and there are people beyond the national American borders. The last 3-4 years have seen a consistent feeding of anti-Americanism in europe, yes - and you fed it yourself. Its a feeding made in the US. You cannot expect that the world and that we will not react if you expect yourself and the world a psychiatric total loss like Trump as a political model and demolish every political structure of international cohesion and make lies and brutal aggression the core instrument of political communication. 3.5 years of Trump have left their mark: and the m ark is destruction, destruction, and more destruction. Anti-Americanism is the logical consequence. Even I have largely turned away from the USA as a political actor/entity, its trustworthiness is destroyed, its not better than that of Russia or China. Bush couldn't made me doing that. Obama couldn't. The concentrated stupidity of the political America did not manage that until 2016. And not much else either made me doing that. But Trump signals a breaking point that can no longer be repaired. It's a paradigm shift. You wanted Trump. Okay, but that has its cost. Maybe you have not fully realised that in America, but you have lost many allies, and won no new ones, but an awesome load of new mistrust in you. Splendid isolation, well, you wanted it, so I think America is happy?!

The U.S. has given trillions of dollars in economic and military aid to Europe since 1945. No one is going to use economic sanctions just to sell gas to Europe.

Forgive, but we do not listen to you perosnally, but to the actions and letters and threats by your government and politicians. And they left nothing to be desired in clearness, threat and underlying hostility, and implied they were the rulers of nthe world and the world owes them to obey. There are very seriuosu doubts on the legality of your demands and claism, from a pespective of internaitonal law. The Ger,man govenrment cosniders seriousloy to sue your go9venrment before an aemricna court, currnetl ysitll shies away form that due to the esclaaiton that would mena, and hoping that a defeat of Trump may delete the need to do so. You cannot switch to such mode of behaviour and action as is common with Trump now and then tell the receiverof your attacks "it means nothing". Nobody will believe you. Nobody does believe you. Even more so since you touch upon most vital own interests of ours that we simply cannot afford to play games over.

Anyway, U.S. gas exporters are not really interested in Europe, the market is stagnant and EU economic restrictions and red tape make it too expensive a proposition, the real action is in Asia where the market should expand exponentially over the next 10-20 years.

Thats your hope, to save the monumental investements of your fracking industry. But as I said, this fracking gas simply is uncompetitive and only can get sold be diplomatic subsidies. Its not competitive on the market. Your fracking industry will not survive another 10-20 years of stalemate over liquid gas. 30-40% over market prices simply is way too expensive. We have build terminals, due to american demand for European customers buying your gas. As I said, these terminals are being used not to even half of their capacity, becasue the industries over here do not want to buy your gas, its too expensive, and too bad in quality, and then therei s the ecological argument against it, and the need to clean it after delivery. Thats why there is so much pressure to force the stubborn Europeans to make them wanting it. But we do not want it. Economically, it makes no sense, and is at our loss.

Killing NS2 is about one thing only, namely collective security as I will explain below.

We know this claim. We see it as a strawman argument. The Russians simply offer the better deal than you, that simple it is: better product, cheaper conditions. And different to you, they do not blackmail us and try to intimidate us. You see, America behaves in right that fashion right now that it accuses Russia it would behave like if Russia would sell more gas to us. You just claim their badness - while already practicing this badness yourself, right now!

Well now you are making a "process" argument. That is like a murderer saying he should be let off because of a minor technicality or the CSA arguing the Civil War was really about "States Rights" and had nothing to do with slavery.

You only make a "process" argument when you know the underlying substantive argument cannot be defended.

This is about only one thing, namely Collective Security.

NATO was founded on the principle of Collective Security, namely that a group of countries have a better chance of resisting aggression than if each goes it alone.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014 was the gravest threat to the principle of Collective Security since 1945. We can argue about the causes of the war and who was right or wrong, but Russia's actions, invading Ukraine, annexing Crimea and occupying Eastern Ukraine were clear violations of International Law.

The Russian actions had to be punished and further aggression discouraged, which is why the EU and USA imposed sanctions which are still in place and the EU and the USA gave billions of dollars in economic and military aid to Ukraine.

Ukraine is no member of NATO, and the Crimean was and is of indispensable strategic and cultural relevance for Russian people and state. A majority of people thereis reproted to feel attached to Russia, not Ukraine, many are of Russian descent. But the West, like before, chooses to poke the Russians in their eye, provoking them. That is stupid, and needless, and the Ukrainians pay the price for this Western arrogance. Same like in Syria, in a way. Everybody was talking about how much concerned he was about the loss of civilian lives. But it was tried evertyhing to keep the war running, a war that could not be won anymore once the Russians engaged in strength. One had the Western sense of "justice" and forgot realism over it, and delivered weapons to keep a wild bunch of different rebel groups fighting without having a real chance. This prolongued trhe war, and that was all it acchieved, nothing else. That is murderous hypocrisy. Big powers have spheres of infleunce whether you like it or not, whether it is fair or not, but that is how it has always been throughout history, and inside these the local/regional hegemon simply cannot afford not to react if getting challenged. So nobody should be surprised if one steps into somebody else's backyard and the owner becomes angry. It may not be fair. it may not be just. But thats the rules this game is being played by, full stop. It was stupid to have NATO creeping onto Russian Western borders. It was stupid to challenge them over the Crimean. It was stupid to challenge them over Syria. And it has been Ukraineans and Syrians paying the price for this arrogance. Russia is no global player anymore as it claims it still is. But within its part of the playing field - try to do something against their will! You have to take them into account, whether you love them or not.

And this: different to America, the Russians got their engagements done. Brutally, ruthlessly, dirty, because that is how wars are beign won. America fought an endless war of waste and exhaustion in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what has been changed in these countries? Nothing. Tariq Aziz warned you after he was caught and processed of right this happening, and that you simply do not understand the elemental basics. And he is proven to be right. The Russians got what they wanted, and they will keep it, and their military endavours were limited, determined and effective. Not nice, not humane, but militarily: effective. THEY WON. America added two more strategic defeats to its growign list of strategic defeats. Since WWII, it seems America hasd become an expert in suffering strategic defeats even where it did not loose a field battle. There is something seriously wrong in the design of thinking, it seems.

Completion of Nord Steam 2 undermines the very concept of Collective Security. It will make Russia's position stronger against Ukraine while making Ukraine's position weaker and make it more likely that Russia will eventually achieve its aim in Ukraine. In effect, NS2 will reward Russia for its aggression, making it more likely that it will be emboldened to take similar actions in the future and further undermine European Security.

My care for the Ukraine is somewhat limited, I admit, it is currently a failed state in my book. They do not get rid of their corrupt elites, the criminal oligrach scum controlling them and the economy and everything. I do not want states joining NATO or the eU while beign wrecks, I want them not to join before they are strong and foster and actually are an attribution instead of a weakening of the alliances. We have burdens enough already, we have not really the ressources left to fix others' messes. Sorry, but I am Realpolitiker there, not idealist. Idealism does not pay bills and does not stop the collapse of the West that we already see even without adding another crisis centre to our list of names.

And why is Germany doing this? Is there a pressing need for Gas that cannot be met any other means? no, all of Western Europe's requirements can be met by existing channels. the only reason why German businesses are pushing the project is because it will make them very rich. In effect, German businessmen would rather be well paid Russian stooges than stand up to Russian aggression and the German government is abetting them.

No. Nobody will admit it before the cameras, but indeed Germany wants an alternative to the gas channeling through the Ukraine, because of our bad experiences with it in the past, and the vulnerability of this channel, also we want Poland being weakend in its possibility to blackmail the eU by controlling the gas that flows through its territory (and for which it sacks in money, like the Ukraine). We will never openly admit that, but take it as granted that this is why we do it. And no, it is not to make some Germans richer. Most of the gas delivered via NS2 is not beign consumed in Germnay, but gets trnapdsortefd further to more Western and Southern coutnries. We want better logistical security by increasing the degrees of freedom and increasing number of options.


Its a foolish argument to say it helps us or Europe if we allow dependency on the good will of the Ukraine (who have stolen and betrayed us and Russia over gas in the past). Or Poland, for that matter.



Another argument why the US is attacking ov er NS2, has not been mentioned so far. Russia is a big global player when it comes to exporting ressources, and gas. They are a strong rival to your ambitions to become the leading gas exporter in the world, also yolu want to punish them by sanctions and weakening them by crippling their economy. A success like NS2 does oppose these American ambitions.


Its the long-since known American strawman arguments you bring up here. But you have Mr. Dollar as president, and he knows nothing of right and wrong, ideals and political morals, he is a merciless opportunist and he only cares about himself. You will not find many people willing to believe your arguments over here anymore. Maybe you underestimate how tremendously American reputation has lost due to the Trump years. And we do not trust in that after Trump things get better again. I doubt that. The tone will chnage for the better a bit, buit the conflicts will remain, becasue the dísagreements there are are due to fundamental stretegic rifts, they are structural political differences due to very different ambitions and positions in the world. And when Trump has happend once, something like him could anytime happen again. No, it has been deeply understood that we cannot just follow your leadership anymore.

It would be a reasonable next step from America's side to be consistent with shifting the focus of interest from Europe to the Pacific, and its craving for splendid isolation, if it simply pulls out of Europe completely. It still feels strange for me to say that, but since one or two years I have started to think iut, and I have started to get used to it. Leave Europe to itself! If you really are consistent and logical in America, then you MUST leave Europe now. The only motive you still can have to have a foot in the local affairs over here is - money and business interests. Of which you imply they play only a minor or no role in your nation'S posiitons over NS2, and that it all is about protecting Europe from itself: collective security".

I say money is the absolutely dominating US motive for preventing NS2. The elephant in the room. The one explanation that explains everything, and in the easiest way. Occam's razor. This is the theory I follow, therefore.

[Bilge_Rat]

Never mind Navalny, Germany won’t get tough with Russia

Berlin’s stance on the project, and on Russia more generally, mystifies many of its partners, especially the Baltic states, which remain vulnerable to Moscow’s aggression.

“It’s impossible to create one box for business and economic issues and a separate box for political issues when dealing with Russia,” Latvian Foreign Minister Edgars Rinkēvičs told POLITICO. “You can try to do it, but the other side doesn’t look at the world that way.”

Indeed, there’s ample evidence to suggest that Germany’s strategy of engaging Russia in the face of its aberrant behavior simply encourages it to carry on. It also worries other countries in the region, especially in Central and Eastern Europe, which history has taught to be wary of German-Russian cooperation.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navalny-404764

[Skybird]

Yes, the German schizophrenia continues with its relations to China. Turkey. And others.


Its like the American schizophrenia with regimes like Saudi Arabia.


Could it be that two interests are weighed and one is found to be more heavy than the other?

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes, the German schizophrenia continues with its relations to China. Turkey. And others.


Its like the American schizophrenia with regimes like Saudi Arabia.


Could it be that two interests are weighed and one is found to be more heavy than the other?

Could the answer be Money ?

What will Germany loose in money and jobs, if they enforce embargo on one of these countries ?

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Could the answer be Money ?

There is a slight chance that money maybe, to some minor degree, could possibly have something, anything to do with it...

What will Germany loose in money and jobs, if they enforce embargo on one of these countries ?

Germany is a desperately export-dependent nation, nobody exports as much as we do, or only China.



And Germany praise sitself to have th ebest relations to russia amognst all Wetsenr nations. By this we make ourselves belöeiving in our grfeat intenrational indispensability. We thjink that we play a big role in world politics, because of our access to Rssuain givenrment circles.



To Germany'S dfgeence I also must say that there is a greater willingnes sin Germany to maccept that there are many global probkems and issue and conflpcits where nothign cna be done withozut or even against Russia, we see that clearer than some others in the West, I think. Like it or leave it, thats how it is. Syria, Libya being two obvious examples.



But by far the main reason is economic interest. And why not? the US heavily spoies on us, our giovenrment, it steals our secrets and runs idnsutrial espoionage at least as intensovely as Russia or China do. And despite the threats and tax wars and lies Trumps throws at us, we react with far more self-restraint than he does, becasue our exporting to the US and German car makers running factories in the US (that create several tens of thousands of jobs and create tax income for America, btw.).


Its always mostly about money, in the end.

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53964147

The innocent left-left-left sovjet in Berlin. How should they have known in advance? The innocent demostraiton orgaiser who had neonaziw walkign amomngnstb them since they started - how shopudl, the yhave known? The innmocent Berlin police who faces this kind of scum since long time and daily - how should they have known? The innocent German judges decidiing that the ban of the demonstration by the police wa sillegal - how should they have known?

Innocently things turn from bad to worse. And innocently they will turn from worse to worst. Babble-di-babble-di-babble-di-booom. Isn't it cute to watch. So innocent. So concerned. So all-aware. So all-caring.

[Catfish]

^ They obviously did not expect so many dumb tinfoil-heads, and those others who instrumentalized them for their right-wing goals.
What would you have proposed, forbid the demonstrations?

Whatever, the police deserves a medal.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ They obviously did not expect so many dumb tinfoil-heads, and those others who instrumentalized them for their right-wing goals.

But why not? They could, they must, they should have known better, its not as if the presenc eof nutheads and Nazis was unforseen and surprising. There were THREE police officers to seal off and prpotect the buildiung. THREE...!

What would you have proposed, forbid the demonstrations?

Ending it the momnent distance rules and mask preconditons were ignored and broken. It makes no sense to state preconditions like mask wearing for as dmeosnrtaitona dn then not enforcing it. The dmeo shopuld hav e ended already hours earlier. And the Queerdenker network is associated witrh Reiochsdeutsche and AfD presence since most if not all of their demonstrations since they began. Their distancing from the Reichsbürger afterwards, is hypocrisy. The reight is welcomed very much as long as it boosts numbers of participators and criticises the establishment.

There were more flags on the stairs of the Reichstag. A flag from Ecuador, I wodner why that is. A US flag: obviously Trumpo followers, its the only thing that makes sense. And a couple of flags I could nto identiofy. Of course plenty of the old imperial German flags. Russian flags - wowh. Turkish flags - what have the yin common with Russaian and Americna flag waving? Extreme autocratic regimes in power, or wannabe-autocratic regimes. I missed the Chinese flag and that of Belarus.

[mapuc]

Skybird

You are one of many friends I have online and who haven't a FB-account.
(Very understandable)
If you had, you would be shocked what people share of fake/doubtful information when it comes to this Corona virus.

These people are more eager to believe these fake/doubtful information than what they hear from the government or from the national health authorities.

This is why they demonstrate-they do not believe the government/health authorities.

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