Tesla: ‘There’s almost no reason to have a gas car’ - Page 8

ET2SN · 04-19-21, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Why. not. use. hydrogen.

Buy one of those children's balloons the next time you go shopping. Make sure its filled with hydrogen. Take it home.

After a week, try to figure out why it deflated.

Hydrogen is the lightest element. That makes it very hard to store without diffusing out of its container. Unless you have a cryo-storage unit in your closet.

Buddahaid · 04-19-21, 10:57 AM

They fill those with helium.

mapuc · 04-19-21, 11:19 AM

Do you remember our discussion on the new F35 fighter jet and former fighter jets and their childhoods problems.

When it came to F-14, F15 they solved these problems like they will with F35.

The same goes for the Batteries in the coming electric cars.

Maybe batteries with a cap. 1000-10.000 higher than todays.
Less than 10 min to fully charge(from zero to 100 %)
Max charge every time even after 100 times.
Not temp depend(it can be around 50 miles depending on temp)
Weight 1/20 of todays batteries.

A.s.o.

Markus

mapuc · 04-19-21, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Buy one of those children's balloons the next time you go shopping. Make sure its filled with hydrogen. Take it home.

After a week, try to figure out why it deflated.

Hydrogen is the lightest element. That makes it very hard to store without diffusing out of its container. Unless you have a cryo-storage unit in your closet.

The Danish technological institute has developed an engine who runs on Hydrogen.
This was about 5-10 years ago..don't know how far they are now.

https://www.dti.dk/specialists/groun...el-cells/26010

Markus

ET2SN · 04-19-21, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

They fill those with helium.

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?

Buddahaid · 04-19-21, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?

Doesn't mix well with birthday candles...

Catfish · 04-19-21, 04:01 PM

^ same can be said for 98+ octane fuel.
Indeed the same Angst was expressed when inner combustion engines were used for the first time.
You can use V2a/V4a steel tanks to put liquid compressed hydrogen in it, or you can use fuel cells which ony produce a litte of hydrogen gas, just as much as is needed in the moment.
Hydrogen can indeed penetrate steel, so you will experience a bit of pressure loss in your tank over months, but the quantities are minimal. If you do not use your fuel-driven car for say four years the fuel will have developed into strange stinking liquid, its lighter inflammable gases evaporated.
Pure hydrogenium not thoroughly mixed with oxygen is not inflammable. Fuel cells are still heavy, but so are batteries.
Advantages are existing technology can be used including engines and gearboxes, same injection systems just coupled with valves just like with propane or LPG fuelled engines and cars.
The only exhaust fumes will be water vapour.

Yes hydrogen has to be produced also, via power plants or solar energy, but the effort is ridiculously low compared to produce batteries that hold for five years if you are lucky.

Add the power line loss over distances due to resistance and the amount of copper or even silver you would need to provide enough electricity to every household to quick charge your batteries, it plain does not make sense.

Skybird · 04-19-21, 05:44 PM

Try to extinguish a burnign Tesla lithium battery. Happend once ion Germany I know of, maybe more oftenb, but I knbow of this event, months ago. The firefighters had to put the whole car into a huge tank with water for days until Tesla send a specialist telling them how to extinguish it. I do not know what in the end became of it.

Platapus · 04-19-21, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?

It leaks too much out of balloons.

August · 04-19-21, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?

They could make them sausage shaped and call them Hindenbaloons.

Buddahaid · 04-19-21, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

They could make them sausage shaped and call them Hindenbaloons.

Oh the sausages...

Catfish · 04-20-21, 03:17 AM

^ lol oh the huge manatee

Sure, let's not underestimate the dangers of hydrogen, but fuel and its vapours are not exactly harmless either.

OT: during WW1 Germany built almost a hundred Zeppelins +Schuette-Lanz +other airships for the war effort, mostly for naval surveillance, but also as bombers.

Some were indeed shot down, but only very few exploded, due to pure hydrogen is not inflammable. Lots of grenades and ammo hardware went right through the hydrogen-filled inner gas bags without igniting them. The cells certainly began to leak, but were quickly sealed by the airship's sail maker teams. Drop a bit of ballast and they were good to go on in minutes.

It was only after some special incendiary ammunition like the Pomeroy & Brock type was invented, that the first airship was shot down in flames.
Even then they had to attack several times, first for penetrating the gas bags, then wait for the air mixing and becoming flammable, then a second attack which ignited the oxygen-hydrogen mixture. Same for the observation balloons of the time.

They could have used helium, but this is rare on earth (if abundant in the universe), and hydrogen was much cheaper and available, and you needed less since it is much lighter than helium.

THE_MASK · 04-20-21, 06:29 PM

Tesla in Australia starting from $74900 2021 model
Suzuki swift price starting from $18990 2021 model Fuel consumption 4.6l/100 klms average city highway .
I wont be buying a Tesla anytime soon .

AVGWarhawk · 04-22-21, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober

Tesla in Australia starting from $74900 2021 model
Suzuki swift price starting from $18990 2021 model Fuel consumption 4.6l/100 klms average city highway .
I wont be buying a Tesla anytime soon .

Yes, pricing needs to come down to earth. Some are there. For me, when a vehicle is cresting $40K...it is time to rethink a lower purchase. But that is just me. I was looking at the KIA/Hyundai offerings. The costs are in the $40K plus range. Others will come along at reasonable prices. I think Tesla has a EV at $37K. However, Tesla has never been a good looking EV IMO.

AVGWarhawk · 05-04-21, 10:10 AM

Interesting article on why ICE will never go away completely.

This reason to be the most compelling to me:

Quote:

The second reason is mining. Replacing all the ICE vehicles in the U.S. with EVs would require stunning amounts of commodities like cobalt, lithium, and copper. The scale of the demand can be understood by looking at a letter that Professor Richard Herrington of the Natural History Museum in London sent to the British government last year. Herrington and his colleagues looked at the U.K.’s climate goals and the requirement that all its vehicles be converted to electricity by 2050. Doing so, they found, would require the entire world’s production of neodymium, three quarters of the world’s lithium production, and at least half of the world’s copper production during 2018. And remember, that’s just for the U.K.!

https://www.realclearenergy.org/arti...ay_651051.html

04-19-21, 10:57 AM	#107
Buddahaid Shark above Space Chicken Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 8,558 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 0	They fill those with helium. __________________ "However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light." Stanley Kubrick "Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming." David Bowie

04-19-21, 11:19 AM	#108
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,886 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Do you remember our discussion on the new F35 fighter jet and former fighter jets and their childhoods problems. When it came to F-14, F15 they solved these problems like they will with F35. The same goes for the Batteries in the coming electric cars. Maybe batteries with a cap. 1000-10.000 higher than todays. Less than 10 min to fully charge(from zero to 100 %) Max charge every time even after 100 times. Not temp depend(it can be around 50 miles depending on temp) Weight 1/20 of todays batteries. A.s.o. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

04-19-21, 04:01 PM	#112
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ same can be said for 98+ octane fuel. Indeed the same Angst was expressed when inner combustion engines were used for the first time. You can use V2a/V4a steel tanks to put liquid compressed hydrogen in it, or you can use fuel cells which ony produce a litte of hydrogen gas, just as much as is needed in the moment. Hydrogen can indeed penetrate steel, so you will experience a bit of pressure loss in your tank over months, but the quantities are minimal. If you do not use your fuel-driven car for say four years the fuel will have developed into strange stinking liquid, its lighter inflammable gases evaporated. Pure hydrogenium not thoroughly mixed with oxygen is *not inflammable. Fuel cells are still heavy, but so are batteries. Advantages are existing technology can be used including engines and gearboxes, same injection systems just coupled with valves just like with propane or LPG fuelled engines and cars. The only exhaust fumes will be water vapour. Yes hydrogen has to be produced also, via power plants or solar energy, but the effort is ridiculously low compared to produce batteries that hold for five years if you are lucky. Add the power line loss over distances due to resistance and the amount of copper or even silver you would need to provide enough electricity to every household to quick charge your batteries, it plain does not make sense. __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 05-04-21 at 11:27 AM.

04-19-21, 05:44 PM	#113
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Try to extinguish a burnign Tesla lithium battery. Happend once ion Germany I know of, maybe more oftenb, but I knbow of this event, months ago. The firefighters had to put the whole car into a huge tank with water for days until Tesla send a specialist telling them how to extinguish it. I do not know what in the end became of it. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

04-20-21, 03:17 AM	#117
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ lol oh the huge manatee Sure, let's not underestimate the dangers of hydrogen, but fuel and its vapours are not exactly harmless either. OT: during WW1 Germany built almost a hundred Zeppelins +Schuette-Lanz +other airships for the war effort, mostly for naval surveillance, but also as bombers. Some were indeed shot down, but only very few exploded, due to pure hydrogen is not inflammable. Lots of grenades and ammo hardware went right through the hydrogen-filled inner gas bags without igniting them. The cells certainly began to leak, but were quickly sealed by the airship's sail maker teams. Drop a bit of ballast and they were good to go on in minutes. It was only after some special incendiary ammunition like the Pomeroy & Brock type was invented, that the first airship was shot down in flames. Even then they had to attack several times, first for penetrating the gas bags, then wait for the air mixing and becoming flammable, then a second attack which ignited the oxygen-hydrogen mixture. Same for the observation balloons of the time. They could have used helium, but this is rare on earth (if abundant in the universe), and hydrogen was much cheaper and available, and you needed less since it is much lighter than helium. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

04-20-21, 06:29 PM	#118
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	Tesla in Australia starting from $74900 2021 model Suzuki swift price starting from $18990 2021 model Fuel consumption 4.6l/100 klms average city highway . I wont be buying a Tesla anytime soon .