SCXIIC:How to correct the errors of sonar classification?

[Stanny]

Hello everybody,

I had a strange occasion while playing mission of the Seawolf's campaign in SCXIIC today.I picked up Charlie Class submarine on sphere array.I was a bit amazed of the sound of her propeller blades,as they were turning rather noisy,like these on large surface ships.Anyway,narrowband classified this contact as Charlie Class with filter turned on.

I worked up a TMA firing solution and fired two (one with active homing,other with passive) MK 48 Adcap Mod 5 torpedoes from distance of about 10 000 yards.I was very confused when torpedoes sank a Sovremenny Class destroyer.

I loaded the game save and decided to stream the starboard towed array and check the same contact with it.I was confused again when fully streamed towed arrray showed no contacts at all in this range of bearings.

So,I would like to ask all captains,how are you dealing with such situations,when one sensor is showing something with high confidence and other sensors show something completely different or even nothing at all.What do usually do,do you try to engage those unclear contacts or drop them from TMA and go away?

Thanks for your response.

With best regards,
Stan.

[Captain Nemo]

Hello Stan,

This is a strange situation you have there. Normally the towed array being more sensitive than the sphere should pick up any contacts that the sphere has picked up and give you a merged contact on the nav map, which in turn gives a more accurate firing solution. Were there any other platforms other than Charlie Class showing on the narrow band selection screen? I assume not by your post. Also, was there a line in narrowband at 50Hz, this normally identifies a Russian sub, not sure if the Sovremenny Class destroyer has similar characteristics though. Demon can be used to determine a sub from a surface vessel, but you have to have a good solid contact for this to be accurate in my experience. Other than that I am stumped, others may have a solution for you though.

What I would do in this situation depends on the mission orders, I would probably try and get closer to this contact and positively identify it using both towed and sphere arrays. Also, if the sound of the contact is the opposite of what sonar thinks it is, it might be prudent to go to periscope depth and raise the ESM mast to see if any surface contacts were in the vicinity and using their radar.

I'll have to fire up SC and play the Seawolf campaign as you have mentioned this campaign before and it sounds quite interesting.

Nemo

[sonar732]

Originally Posted by Stanny

Hello everybody,

I had a strange occasion while playing mission of the Seawolf's campaign in SCXIIC today.I picked up Charlie Class submarine on sphere array.I was a bit amazed of the sound of her propeller blades,as they were turning rather noisy,like these on large surface ships.Anyway,narrowband classified this contact as Charlie Class with filter turned on.

I worked up a TMA firing solution and fired two (one with active homing,other with passive) MK 48 Adcap Mod 5 torpedoes from distance of about 10 000 yards.I was very confused when torpedoes sank a Sovremenny Class destroyer.

I loaded the game save and decided to stream the starboard towed array and check the same contact with it.I was confused again when fully streamed towed arrray showed no contacts at all in this range of bearings.

So,I would like to ask all captains,how are you dealing with such situations,when one sensor is showing something with high confidence and other sensors show something completely different or even nothing at all.What do usually do,do you try to engage those unclear contacts or drop them from TMA and go away?

Thanks for your response.

With best regards,
Stan.

More than likely since you were using the sphere array, the lines didn't match exactly. A general rule of thumb is that unless you are kissing another submarine, you won't find it on the sphere broadband. Not to mention that once you listened on the BB and it was louder than a Mack truck...process of elimination would've been...there's no way a sub would be that loud...in the game . As said earlier...if you have doubts, it doesn't hurt to take a peek thru the scope or using the ESM for clasification.

Remember what your mission orders are also as this will give you a heads up on what type of platforms to expect.

[Stanny]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Were there any other platforms other than Charlie Class showing on the narrow band selection screen?

Yes,there were also fishing boats,cargo ships and trawlers.There is a rather heavy surface traffic in that area.

Also, was there a line in narrowband at 50Hz, this normally identifies a Russian sub, not sure if the Sovremenny Class destroyer has similar characteristics though.

Yes,there was a line in the 50hz mode also and signature display showed that was a Charlie class either.

I always try to scan through broadband array first.I turn to sphere array in shallow waters,when I do not have the possibility to stream the towed array fully.

As said earlier...if you have doubts, it doesn't hurt to take a peek thru the scope or using the ESM for clasification.

Yes,I go to PD from time to time and scope arround,and both ESM and periscope show me more or less the same I see on sonar stations.

I recommend everyone to try out Seawolf's campaign in SCXIIC.There is a sub,Akula-II Class "Gepard" that performs like a monster.The only time I was able to detect her was in Akula Port Egress mission.In all other,deep blue water missions it is simply stealthy.Almost completely silent.I recognize her being there only after she fires several Shkvals at me.Today,I picked her up on towed array broadband with very weak signal,started a turn to solve out the ambiguity and lost the contact in the result.AI in SCXIIC is just rocking

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by Stanny

Yes,there was a line in the 50hz mode also and signature display showed that was a Charlie class either.

I recommend everyone to try out Seawolf's campaign in SCXIIC.There is a sub,Akula-II Class "Gepard" that performs like a monster.The only time I was able to detect her was in Akula Port Egress mission.In all other,deep blue water missions it is simply stealthy.Almost completely silent.I recognize her being there only after she fires several Shkvals at me.Today,I picked her up on towed array broadband with very weak signal,started a turn to solve out the ambiguity and lost the contact in the result.AI in SCXIIC is just rocking

Did you assign a tracker in narrowband on the 50Hz line? This may sort your problem out.

When I get a chance I'm going to try the Seawolf campaign. Please remind me, did this campaign come with stock SC or do I need to download it from somewhere? I agree, the Akula can be very difficult to pick up. When I want to play a quick mission in SC I fire up 'Command Challenge' and I guarantee I don't know it's there unitil I here 'torpedo in the water'! Yep, SCXII is a great mod.

Nemo

[Stanny]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Did you assign a tracker in narrowband on the 50Hz line? This may sort your problem out.

Have a look at screenshot below.It is a narrowband towed array in 50 Hz mode and it is a very weak signal of Akula-II being tracked under ice in mission "Satellite Hunt".Did you mean this method,as an usual way to detect russian subs?



I always assign trackers in broadband only.I use narrowband for classification purposes.I think,that if contact is invisible in broadband,there will be lots of problems tracking it in narrowband.For example,you may not be able to distinguish the bearing ambiguity or loose the contact while trying to do so.I prefer changing course from time to time,in order to scan different fields with towed array in broadband.I noticed,that course changes of ownship "prevent" weak contacts from escaping.

All these missions come along with a standard stock Seawolf's campaign in SC.So,I think,there is no need in downloading something.

Anyway,thanks for your help,Captain Nemo.

[sonar732]

Originally Posted by Stanny

I always assign trackers in broadband only.I use narrowband for classification purposes.I think,that if contact is invisible in broadband,there will be lots of problems tracking it in narrowband.For example,you may not be able to distinguish the bearing ambiguity or loose the contact while trying to do so.I prefer changing course from time to time,in order to scan different fields with towed array in broadband.I noticed,that course changes of ownship "prevent" weak contacts from escaping.

If you assign a tracker on a faint 50 hz tonal in NB, you'll have a better chance of detecting it earlier and a first shot probability on the platform. Think of it this way...you are looking at BB. Nothing is showing up in your STA waterfall, but you have a very faint line in ITA if you are lucky. There isn't a good enough SNR rating, so BB won't allow a tracker to be placed. However, if you go to NB, change your frequency to 100hz and place a tracker on the 50hz, you not only know that it's more than likely a sub, but also after a few speed, depth, and course changes, have a decent TMA reading when all you'd find out in BB is..."I know something is out there...don't know how far, but I know it's there"

[Stanny]

Originally Posted by sonar732

If you assign a tracker on a faint 50 hz tonal in NB, you'll have a better chance of detecting it earlier and a first shot probability on the platform.

Many thanks,I will give it a try.And what about TMA in this case?I think,it is worth launching torpedoes immediately after I get the very preliminary firing solution.

I have already made a conclusion,that the longer you try to calculate an excellent TMA solution,the less chances you have to hit the target,actually.

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by sonar732

If you assign a tracker on a faint 50 hz tonal in NB, you'll have a better chance of detecting it earlier and a first shot probability on the platform. Think of it this way...you are looking at BB. Nothing is showing up in your STA waterfall, but you have a very faint line in ITA if you are lucky. There isn't a good enough SNR rating, so BB won't allow a tracker to be placed. However, if you go to NB, change your frequency to 100hz and place a tracker on the 50hz, you not only know that it's more than likely a sub, but also after a few speed, depth, and course changes, have a decent TMA reading when all you'd find out in BB is..."I know something is out there...don't know how far, but I know it's there"

Sonar732 has hit the nail on the head. I believe the SCX mod made detecting subs that are a long way off or are very stealthy much harder to detect in broadband. However, using the techniques described in narrowband you will detect subs much earlier and sometimes long before they appear in broadband. Since having an LCD monitor though, I have found it harder to use narrowband in this way which is a pity, my old CRT monitor was much better at showing faint tonals in narrowband.

Nemo

[sonar732]

Originally Posted by Stanny

I have already made a conclusion,that the longer you try to calculate an excellent TMA solution,the less chances you have to hit the target,actually.

Do you use the autocrew or manual TMA? I'll admit that I haven't mastered TMA yet and use the autocrew. So, with that being said...I've seen my TMA jump 15k-20k yards after receiving a new solution. There are websites out there that suggest you have your torpedo presets at every 5k-10k yards to cover this possibility.

Why in the world would you do that? In the picture perfect world, the contact you launched those three torpedos might stay along the same course...but more than likely not. So, you've just wasted three fish going down the same bearing going after something that took an evasive 45-90 degree turn away from the projected path.

Now he knows your general bearing and if his UUV got a good sniff of your torpedos early, he can launch a spread at you assuming that you have cleared dantum, he'll ignore the countermeasures you launched and utilize snapshots with a 5 degree difference.

One of strategy that I've seen is there will be a torpedo with the standard 75% range on snake pattern, then another will be either darn close or right on the exact TMA range with circle to cover the escape route.

[Stanny]

Originally Posted by sonar732

Do you use the autocrew or manual TMA?

I am using manual TMA as well as all other Seawolf's stations.I usually have no problems with working up a TMA firing solution if target keeps a steady course.

[Stanny]

I decided to follow sonar732's advice and turned on TMA and fire control autocrews.Detected Akula again on 50 Hz narrowband towed array and launched several torpedoes at her.This time fortune was on my side.

Here is a screenshot of sunk Akula-I "Narval":



So,I can make a conclusion,that those weak contacts should be fired upon immediately after detection.

[sonar732]

Glad that I could help you out! What was the range which you detected the Akula because the screenshot looked like they were pretty close to you.

[Stanny]

Originally Posted by sonar732

What was the range which you detected the Akula because the screenshot looked like they were pretty close to you.

I took a screenshot a bit later,however,the actual distance was about 12000-13000 yards or maybe even less.I should notice,first torpedoes lost their wires and missed,and Akula had been hit while making an evasive maneuvering with other couple of MK-48 Adcap Mod 5's.I spent four torpedoes for sinking this sub.

I think that main idea in engagements of such dangerous subs as Akulas,with their extremely low noise signatures is quick detection at 50 Hz narrowband and rapid firing at them,until they go down,initially.