[WIP] IRAI (Intelligent Random AI)

[SteelViking]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Next thing I'm going to add to the ship's AI is the destroyer that sits there waiting for you to resurface. My question is how often did a destroyer just sit around waiting for the sub to resurface? How many were left to do this duty when the others returned back to the convoy? How long did they sit there and wait? Did they move position to keep in constant 'contact' with the sub or did they just park in one spot and wait? How far back did they sit from the sub waiting?

I know a decent amount of actual naval tactics, however I am no expert, so if anyone knows better please correct me. Here is how I think that should work:

-I would think that a destroyer would do this any time a submarine was detected, as long as there were more than one escort on the convoy/task force.
-Most likely only one or two destroyers would be posted to do this as the sub might have escaped already so they would not want to waste more resources than necessary.
-The Brits had subs, and they of course captured some U-boats so they would have a pretty good estimate of how long the subs air would last. So, I would say have them wait that amount of time before breaking off.
-I think they should definitely hold still with engines stopped, the point is that you can't hear them, so if you don't do a visual sweep with the periscope they would catch you off guard. Plus, if they actually had contact with you, would they not still be depth charging you or calling in reinforcements?
-They should probably stay directly on top of your last known position or maybe just a few meters away.

Again, this is how I THINK it should be, just trying to help. If anyone knows better don't think I would be offended in any way to be told I am wrong.

Edit: On second thought, just to make the AI a little less predictable, maybe you should only have them do this some of the time. I am still thinking more than 50% of the time though.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by DICY

The first thing I noticed was that as the escorts approached they appeared to be getting attacked by something, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out by what. It looked like they were dropping Depth Charges at first, but they didn't change course at all and some of the explosions were going off in front of the ships. I couldn't see anything around that might be attacking them (planes/ships), and these certainly weren't explosions caused by another U-Boat. I doubt this has anything to do with your AI but I didn't want to leave it unmentioned.

The second thing I saw that I think is a bit more of a problem; I got in front of the escorts, went to about 140 meters to let them pass over me, than went to periscope depth when they were past me. However, when I attacked the merchants none of the escorts seemed to care at all. No course change, nobody coming to look for me, they just kept on going as if nothing had happened. I didn't expect them to be able to find me, but I at least would have thought they'd try. I was able to attack the convoy two more times without any response from the escorts, at which point I surfaced and the mission ended. Again, I don't know if this is actually an AI issue or has more to do with the mission script.

not sure about the first one.

Second one though is great feedback! Here's why that happened: in each 'group' of ships there is a commander. When that commander detects you he issues the tactics for the ships in his group to use. Once those tactics are set they don't end until it says so or an end is scripted into the tactic. So in your situation you were detected and the commander set the Plaster tactic. Initially they were coming to 'plaster' you but you evaded. The commander then switched the tactic to spiral seach. I have spiral search set for 60 mins. After 60mins the tactic automatically ends at which time the ships will regroup with the convoy and no tactic is set. I need to do something about this so that if you do evade and attack the convoy the commander will switch out of the spiral search tactic

[TheBeast]

I agree with most of what SteelViking uses for examples with a couple exceptions.
The DE's camping a location. They should only stay for any prolonged period of time if they were able to actually identify the sound contact as a threat. Sitting in place for hours because of a possible contact just doesnt sound right. Not to mention possible Wolf Pack attack tactics of stripping away escorts before the Merchants are even near the actual location where the bulk of the Wolf Pack intends to attack. Wolf Packs could, in theory easily strip the trailing and flanks escorts by baiting them, leaving 1 or 2 escorts in the front of the convoy.
I know that if SH5 were a MMORPG sim, I would try this tactic with my Squadron (Guild) when attacking escorted convoy's.

With that said, does anyone know of a MMORPG Submarine Simulation that currently exists? If not, I may draw up a story board presentation and show it to some people I know that have the resources to make it happen.

[reaper7]

Originally Posted by TheBeast

With that said, does anyone know of a MMORPG Submarine Simulation that currently exists? If not, I may draw up a story board presentation and show it to some people I know that have the resources to make it happen.

Yes one does exist.


Its called Silent Hunter 5.

Its more MMORPG then Simultion
Eat apple Morale +5
Gain ability 1 = Torp Speed +25

etc etc

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I've never seen a carrier in game yet so I have to ask some questions. If you disable the mod, does this happen? What usually happens when a carrier is first hit with a torpedo, does it do something special?

I'll check it out today. Normally there's just the usual explosions and everyone jumps to their alert state and hunts for me.

[TheDarkWraith]

I screwed up the ship's AI dealing with escorts that are with the convoy and not assigned to the current tactic issued by the commander. Currently they have no strategy that would allow them to attack an enemy if one is detected while there is a tactic set. I will fix this and issue v0.0.4 for feedback on it

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

My question is how often did a destroyer just sit around waiting for the sub to resurface? How many were left to do this duty when the others returned back to the convoy? How long did they sit there and wait? Did they move position to keep in constant 'contact' with the sub or did they just park in one spot and wait? How far back did they sit from the sub waiting?

The only time they'd stop in reality would be to pick up survivors and if they did that, they'd want another escort to steam round them, performing ASW duties.

If they had a contact and were attacking, they'd attack for as long as they had a contact, but would break off if they convoy was too far away. Ideally they'd try to keep all the U-Boats down long enough for the change of course to be effective and stop the U-boats finding them again. The amount of time spared by an escort depended of course on the tactical situation. To lose one escort for an hour out of a ten escort screen is not as bad as losing one escort of a three escort screen as they can't cover the gap. Also, the number of U-Boats present would be a factor in reality, but probably not in the game.

If they lost a contact they'd break off after an hour of seraching or so if they had no other sighting to investigate (a bit like whack-a-mole). The priority was to protect the convoy, not sink the boats, as much as they didn't like to break off. Later on when the support groups came along, they had longer to prosecute the attack.

EDIT: Bear i mind that the early escorts were rickety things that would shake and shudder violenty if they tried to make their top speed of 16 knots (and they were the fast ones). This of course affects how long they can spend away from their charge - if the convoy is moving at 9 knots and they spend an hour at one spot, then it would take them a long time to catch up to the convoy, as their closing speed would be only 6-7 knots at full throttle, even slower in poor weather. Then you have to take into account the poor endurance of the early escorts, which was another limitting factor to how long they could spend charging about. If they bruned up all their fuel chasing U-Boats, they'd have to leave the convoy early. It's all much more complicated tactically than in the game with the speedboats :-).

[SteelViking]

@ TheBeast,

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. I should have explained better, I think the camp out should start after they had depth charged where they thought or knew you were. So naturally, they would have had to have identified you as a threat or else they would not have wasted the dc's trying to get you.

Also, like I said, only one or two DE's should be assigned to this, and if the convoy picks you back up, whatever DE was camping out on your last known location would then move to the new one. So you could not strip the escorts off with this tactic.

Edit: Nisgeis, so you are saying that the camp out tactic is unrealistic altogether?

[DICY]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

not sure about the first one.

Second one though is great feedback! Here's why that happened: in each 'group' of ships there is a commander. When that commander detects you he issues the tactics for the ships in his group to use. Once those tactics are set they don't end until it says so or an end is scripted into the tactic. So in your situation you were detected and the commander set the Plaster tactic. Initially they were coming to 'plaster' you but you evaded. The commander then switched the tactic to spiral seach. I have spiral search set for 60 mins. After 60mins the tactic automatically ends at which time the ships will regroup with the convoy and no tactic is set. I need to do something about this so that if you do evade and attack the convoy the commander will switch out of the spiral search tactic

Ahh, I don't think anyone actually detected me. I simply moved into the convoy's path and let them drive right over me. I went deep because the explosions I'd seen earlier had me thinking there might be another sub in the area that they'd be looking for. They never changed course at all though, just kept leading the convoy, even when I attacked it. A few of the escorts ran erratic patterns behind the leads, but they did that the whole time. I didn't notice a spiral pattern at all.

I think reaper's probably right about the first thing being part of the mission script, is it possible that it's affecting the AI's behavior in some way? I think I'll give it another try and see if I can't duplicate those results.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by SteelViking

Edit: Nisgeis, so you are saying that the camp out tactic is unrealistic altogether?

It's all unrealistic, so it doesn't really matter, as the exercise is to make the escorts defend the convoy in the way in which the players would attack it, not a historical attack.

We don't have any problems of manouvering in bad weather, or cross wind like the U-Boats did in reality, so we can attack from anywhere. In real life, they'd attack either by working their way in from behind into the convoy (or possibly submerging ahead) or they'd have to attack from a certain direction ahead of the convoy, one at a time, due to prevailing weather conditions. None of that exists in game, so there is no point in simulating it.

For example, Operation Raspberry is designed to attack a U-Boat after it has worked its way in, attacked in the centre with torpedoes and submerged. I think most players here attack from the side, so Raspberry wouldn't do anything to them. The in game units have 100% sure communication and can vector in DDs perfectly, but this didn't happen IRL so that changes the dynamic of your attack - it's very dangerous to try to work your way into a convoy on the surface. You could modify it so that you could do it, but then people have all sorts of opinions about what is a relistic detection range at night when surfaced, so you may be hit by the 'realistic stick'.

[John Channing]

To the question of destroyers escorting convoys camping it just didn't happen. Escorts were too few and far between to waste even one in an extended search. With the U-Boats using Wolfpack tactics an escort staying behind to wait it out that would leave a large part of the convoy unprotected. The objective of the escorts was to drive the U-boat down and keep him down until the covoy was out of range of an attack.

Later on, when escorts were more plentiful (ie after the US entered the war and started taking the U-Boat threat seriously), there were Hunter/Killer groups assigned to the convoys whose job was to hang back and, once the regular escorts detected a Sub, charge in and stay with it until they killed them. But that was later... late 43 onwards. Until then escorts were too scarce to waste chasing down shadows.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by John Channing

Later on, when escorts were more plentiful (ie after the US entered the war and started taking the U-Boat threat seriously), there were Hunter/Killer groups assigned to the convoys whose job was to hang back and, once the regular escorts detected a Sub, charge in and stay with it until they killed them.

The British called them support groups. The HK name gives the unfortunate impression that they were out there looking for U-boats on their own, which of course they weren't as that would be a big fat waste of time, just as it was when they tried that before starting the convoy system.

I'll stop spamming the thread now. Sorry.

[SteelViking]

I cannot be certain that this tactic is 100% real, but I have heard of it from several sources. Here is one:

"Prior to the utilization of Hunter/Killer groups, convoys that were fortunate to have enough escorting vessels to allow one or more to remain behind, tenaciously keeping between the convoy and the submarine and forcing it to remain submerged for extended hours, fared a much greater chance in recording a kill then the convoys whose escort complement were somewhat thin."

It does not define "camping out" exactly but it sounds pretty similar.

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by Sonarman

Hey TDW, great work so far. You've probably seen this in the past but here just in case you haven't is a LINK to the great escort tactics presentation/game the BBC put up a while ago, it clearly explains raspberry/pineapple etc.

Great link and I agree.. TDW, you should take a look on this! All you wanna know about tactics used by escorts presented in flash with explicit drawings/animation. Brilliant, wish I could see this in the game!

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Great link and I agree.. TDW, you should take a look on this! All you wanna know about tactics used by escorts presented in flash with explicit drawings/animation. Brilliant, wish I could see this in the game!

I'll give it a look

Escorts protecting the convoy are no longer 'blind and dumb' when the commander has a tactic set. They will seek you out if they detect you now. I'm giving them a max distance they can be from the convoy before they have to return and trying to set a maximum # that can seek you out of those protecting the convoy.