GER politics thread

[Rockstar]

Not so sure it has that much to do with post war education, anymore.

After the war in the pacific Japan’s population had nothing good to say about their military either. They called them tax thieves and had absolutely no respect for them. It seems though that since the 70’s they’ve moved on and recognize the need for an able defense force that can contribute. Their work ethic and culture also shows they are able to start the job done and have something to show for it in the end.

Why Germany can’t snap out of it boggles my mind. German’s need to move on and pay better attention to their military capabilities and for fook sake start contributing. And don’t blame post war education, Japan managed it, you should be embarrassed, Japan. As one analysis by Perun showed. The German government is one massive disfunctional bureaucracy filled with red tape, loves self imposed barriers, can’t get anything done according to plan, on time or even close to budget. By the time all the red tape is cut and political palms are greased there’s no money left to build or maintain the intended project.

[Skybird]

West- and East Germans are quite different. Decades of Sovjet (and Western) socialisation left their traces.

And in the West, there was a massive infiltration of the pacifist and peace movement and the anti-atom-movement by the StaSi and the KGB, to use these to destabilise the social order. That effect is working uhtil today, both movements are EXTREMeLY biased, anti American and left-leaning. So is the media and the education sector since the student revolts of the lat 60s, where Eastenr intel also had its hands in. Its not different thna what then Russians do today in cyberspace,media, internet. nothing of that is any new, they have always done these things!!

The SPD had her Willi Brand, which is their holy icon and messiah. They still do not will to let his "heritage" - their assessment, certainly not mine, i find him hopelessly overestimated - go. Not even now.

The forefathers of today'S germans were the perfect monsters, now the Germans want to show that they are again perfect: in confessing guilt, in setting a global example how to stand to that guilt, how to morally self-whip oneself due to that guilt. Its a sick complex, and has gone to such extreme deformaitons that as a human I am disgusted and as an ex-psychologist I am alarmed. I knew to Israeli, long rtime ago. They were neither the one nor the other: they simply were pissed by what over here is called the "cult of guilt". They were sick and tired of Germans telling them endlessly how terribly sorry they are for the past.

Finally, Germans are more anti-American than anything. They feel close with Russians, since always. More so in the East, but also in the West. Since many generations. A century. Longer, since always, it seems. Dont ask me why, I dont get it. Both people however share a certain nature of seeking servility. The anglosaxon tradition of libertarianism and understanding of democracy, moral and freedom is something that alienates many Germans, Gemans seek collectivism, and a state relieving them of their self-responsibility. Moral is vague for them, mostly left defined, and a value in itself, they expext that to save the world, the Ameeicna understanding of that it is immoral not to be strogn enough to influence your own fate and defend your freedom, is not easily understood over here. Strength a moral virtue? Not for Germans. Like all leftists, they call for the strong state, however. Mind you, the NSDAP was a socialist party and it never had to hide it to be successful.

A strong desire and craving amongst Eastgermans especially to get back their beloved GDR. Like Russians crave for the USSR and Stalin. The past times were better, you know. "Everything was better in the past".

Invoking the past was a cheap excuse to avoid - costly - military responsibility and to make excuses for not taking part in this and that. "Sorry, the sins of our fathers are on us, we can't go along with it. But we take the benefits, thanks for that!"


Finally: you made Germany small and kept it small for a long time after the war! The absaic structure of our constitution and the state order by which the state is organbsied, had to follow demands outloned and demanded by Washington, also Paris and London, but mostly Washington. Hence so many structures over here llok like small copies of the American political strucxture. The most obvious and deciisve difference: your president formally is powerful and unites representative and executive power, the chnbacellor is much more powerless, and must fight with a deeply decentralised state structure where the federal states have more powers than the American states have. That was a demand by the US after the war, to prevent a too strong central government that could march towards a third world war too easily. Beyond that, you will see many similiarities in state structure between Germany and the US. And considering who won the second world war, that is hardly surprising. History gets written by the victors. In case of Germany you plagiarized yourself. LOL

You further have instilled a certain attitude, and exploited the guilt feelings of the Germans against them. This is also a part of the - complex - truth. For exmapekl the BND was not only not trusted and kept on a short line, one used the past also as an argument to not change that and keep it on a short line. That the BND has the reputation to be stuffy and blasé at the same time helped immensely, of course.


And now my refrain: "Never trust the Germans. NEVER."

[Gorpet]

Well, Skybird the Donald is gone.And Joey and the Democrats are in charge.And i bet you didn't see this coming by the party of we want Democracy and freedom and it is the battle cry of the future.Unfortunately the truth is now leaking out, The American president ordered the Destruction of Nord Stream. If you are in the NATO Country Club. Sacrifices must be made right?

[Skybird]

Could be, could not be. We do not know for sure, and until convicing evidence is not shown to actually prove the one or the other scenario, I can only base on probabilities and my assessment of how such probabilties would be weighted by the decision makers in Moscow and Washington. Seen that way my view of all things Nordsstream has not changed at all. Washington has strong motives, but these are countered by enormous political fallout if this stunt would ever become known. Poland and Ukraine also had interests, but probably were not able to do it. Moscow then also has had obvious interests at that time (blackmailing), and must not care for its reputation anymore, since that is ruined anyway.

So for the time being I stand with "most likely the Russians". Which does not rule out the Americans (surprising it would not be, I say since Biden's beginning that Europeans underrate him and see him as more harmless than he actually is). Obama, Trump, Biden, they all have one thing in common: "America first". Which for a president of the US is legitimate - its his job and even his duty. But Germans and generally most Europeans do not get this. Powerpolitics is not our thing when it comes to military and violence at the latest.

And yes, i am aware of the Biden quote "if the Russians invade there will be no more Nordstream", and absolutely always saw this as a threat directed at a stubborn Berlin still refusing to see where it went wrong. But a tgreat is no evidence. And so I stick with probability.


One lesson Europe urgently needs to learn. America is leaving Europe. Its focus is China, not Europoe anymore. And if by the tim e America is gone Europoe has not learned to fill that vaccum by its own strength and power and deterrance, than it will be filled by somebody else. Russia. I still wait for signs that Europe is moving in these regards, but all I see is big mouthed words, reality-denying paroles, determination to become ever more infantile and economically weak, and hot air in motion. The uS and China mkvoe to beocme weconomically strionger, Europe moves to become less competitive and calls that "moral". Idiotic.



We shoukld beocme military MUCH stroinger, and push that strength into NATO, not into expensivce paraalel military structures. That way the Amereicans can reduce their own NATO engagement or get "pressed" back a bit. So far they are dkmninating NAOT because of Europe'S weakness. And we should focus not on improving all the panet in all places beyond our reahc,m but on the core area NATO was designed to defend: Europe, the North atlantic. North America. The Pacific is NOT NATO's operation area. Never was. And Europe has no meaningfull ressoruces to operate there anyway, we even cannot keep our own houses in whiuch we live in order.

[Skybird]

Catfish already mentioned it some days ago with one or two sentences.

I say since many years that the Germans not only are incapable to defend but do not even want to be able to defend themsleves. I sometimes said something like that in Germany it is thought that weakness is a virtue, and strength is immoral. I never meant that as an exaggeration, but as fact. America is very strong. That is why anti-amercanism is very strong over here. Because so: America is immoral because it is so strong. Welcome to the tic-tac of German thinking.



Neue Zürcher Zeitung:
-----------------------------



Germans are not only incapable of defense, but also unwilling to defend themselves

Only one in ten Germans would defend their country in the event of an attack. No wonder. Even the term "people" is considered disreputable in the Federal Republic. The same goes for homeland, nation or fatherland.

If François Mitterrand had suspected that Europe's governments would once applaud Germany for an arms buildup announced as a "turn of the times," he probably would not have agreed to the country's reunification in 1990. The idea of a once again great German nation was in any case suspect to the French president at the time. And who could blame the old man? Unlike today's leaders, Mitterrand had personally felt the consequences of German "greatness. Ever since the Wehrmacht's campaign against the West in the summer of 1940, the former infantryman had had a German shell splinter in his body.

Presumably, today's mood towards Germany also has something to do with this: there are hardly any people left who have such shell splinters stuck in their bodies. The fear of German strength seems to have disappeared with all those who once had to experience it as megalomania and Teutonic frenzy. Instead, a strange impatience prevails. When, one reads and hears everywhere, will the Germans finally assume their leadership role? Where are their tanks? No one seems to believe that a revitalized German military could someday pose a threat again.

In contrast, the Germans seem downright recalcitrant. We know this because the country's demoscopes are constantly polling the population on war and peace. Just last week, the Baltics learned that in the event of a Russian invasion, they should not rely on the Germans to give their government legs to defend its NATO partners. The latest survey, commissioned by the German Press Agency, is even more impressive.

When asked how he (or she) would behave in the event of a military attack on Germany, only one in ten adult Germans answered that they would be willing to serve in the war. And only one in twenty would volunteer. A majority would either try to continue living their usual lives (33 percent) or leave the country as quickly as possible (24 percent).

In addition to the often cited lack of military fitness, there is also a lack of will to go to war: Germans do not want to go to war, not even for themselves. They are not completely alone in this respect, but the willingness to defend the homeland is much stronger almost everywhere. In a 2015 Gallup poll, only the Dutch and Japanese were more unwilling. Switzerland was in the middle of the pack with a willingness to fight of 39 percent.

Is it due to the individualization of German society, to a lack of community will? This is the thesis of historian Michael Wolffsohn. Germans are "egotists" who "no longer know the we. There is probably some truth in that. But the real reason is probably different: The Germans are at odds with themselves like no other people, even today.

Even the term "Volk" is considered disreputable by many of them, even if it is emblazoned prominently on the parliament. The same applies to the nation, the homeland or the fatherland. Anyone who hangs a national flag in front of his or her house, as is quite common in other countries, is considered at best a Germanophile simpleton, if not "right-wing". One is a proud Swabian, Hessian, Franconian or Frisian. But proud German? Better not, or at most in soccer. The only accepted patriotism is called "constitutional patriotism. The term can certainly be discussed, but who goes to war for the Basic Law?

In other European countries, the Federal Republic of Germany may be regarded as a normal nation that should finally make a contribution to collective defense commensurate with its size and economic power. But Germany is not a normal country, and the Germans are not normal citizens. Their relationship to themselves is too broken for that - which is understandable in view of the crimes of National Socialism.

One can find this broken relationship right or regret it, but one must take note of it as a fact. Otherwise, the disappointments are programmed. As long as the Germans do not have a clearly more positive relationship to themselves and their country, it will not be possible to wage war together with them, let alone win it. Such a change of consciousness, on the other hand, will not take place overnight. The turnaround, if it becomes anything at all, will be a project of the century.
--------------------------------

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Finally, Germans are more anti-American than anything. They feel close with Russians, since always.

I really don’t see where you got that idea from. The idea of closer ties with the Russians was never truly there if you exclude the Gorbachev era. Anti-Americanism exists, but is limited to a pretty small group on the extreme left. It’s a rare problem overall. For the most part Germans do not agree with Americans on politics, but that’s mostly because American politics seem to be limited to two positions (which become more and more mutually exclusive), and that’s a result of the American political system.

The American people are generally well liked, even here in the former British zone of occupation.

[Skybird]

There is no doubt that there is - and always was - a feeling amongst germans that they are closer to Russia than to America, and this feeling is (no surprise) even much stronger in the former GDR- states in the east than in the west. However. Germany is a very left-leaning country, and media and education has been that since at least the late 60s. The SPD, one of the two former party heavyweights of older times, does not even have specialists and experts for transatlantic relations anymore. Political reflexes are far more often anti-USA than anti-Russia, conspiracy theories are mostyl directed against the US and not so often against Russia (already years before the war), and in general the public opinion cries wolf about all the many things America does wrong in the world and how evil it is, while Germany always tries to speak with much more restraint and oderaiton about Russia.

The young people today predominantly do away with insights and values of the older generations, they want to abandon capitalism, market economy, they talk of mass expropriations as the natural thing to do, call the performance principle "anti-social" and time an again brandmark American greed and capitalism.

Germany is anti-american by Zeigeist feeling and ideologic conviction, like it also is quite Russophile. That some people maintain good personal relations on private level or business contacts, does not change the general trend. That is quite schizophrenic,m since Germany also like to consume American popular culture and media and like naturally take Americna military protection for granted. Really, schizophrenic, there is no other word to describe it correctly.


Well, Atlas will and already does shrug.

[Rockstar]

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Germany is anti-american by Zeigeist feeling and ideologic conviction, like it also is quite Russophile.

Sorry, no, it's not.

[Skybird]

Sorry, but you miss the realities by a lightyear or two.

From 2020.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/deu...rag-ld.1534449

Das Pew-Institut hat kürzlich 37 000 Menschen aus 33 Ländern repräsentativ befragt, und das Ergebnis der Studie ist schockierend: Eine Minderheit von nur noch 39 Prozent der Deutschen hat eine positive Meinung von den USA. In keinem anderen europäischen Land ist der Blick auf den transatlantischen Partner so negativ. Bemerkenswert daran ist, dass Russland und China besser wegkommen. Eine andere Umfrage, die insbesondere in den USA für Aufsehen gesorgt hat, stammt vom britischen Meinungsforschungsinstitut YouGov. Dabei wurden Deutsche gefragt, wer ihrer Meinung nach die grösste Gefahr für den Weltfrieden darstelle. Auch diese Antworten waren erschreckend.

When I studied in the 90s, the university, Osnabrück, was brimming with far left-leaning sentiment and clear anti-Americanism. It was worse already in West-Berlin, during the Nato-Nachrüstungsbeschluss, and then there was the Friedensbewegung and the Anti-Atom-Beegung - both are far extreme anti-American, and always were. The villain in the Gulf war 1991 were the Americans, Saddam was the innocent victim of white-skinned imperialism with a cowboy hat. - And Osnabrück was not even considered to be amongst the real leftist universities in Germany!

CDU-Transatlantiker may see it differenbt, but they do not represent a significant share of German public opinion anymore since Merkel declared the "conservative" CDU as obsolete, de facto thats what she did.

Do not confuse individual relationships between private individuals and families here and there with the Zeitgeist which carries the whole of society and public opinion.

We will never forgive the Americans that we need them so urgently. Think about it. Its true.


And then came the Donald...

[Catfish]

If this "anti-americanism" (wich i am as well as Ostfriese not convinced of) leads to a more independent Germany i am all for it
The transatlantic lovers can go to hell, with Guttenberg first please.
But please also keep this independence when it comes to resources from Russia or China

What is true and what i mentioned before is that only every tenth german citizen would fight for this country.
Would you?
But this was a poll and the question was understood as "voluntarily".
If there is an official call to arms things might be different.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

What is true and what i mentioned before is that only every tenth german citizen would fight for this country.
Would you?

I am at war with what they make of Germany in the present. But then I am also at war with their attempt to reduce German history to just 12 fascist years, ignoring over 900 years that were before. So it seems that there are things, developments and names and traditions, arts and scientific accievements I think would be worth to fight for, else I would not be angry at the present Germans ignoring and rejecting and denying all of that.

No, I would not fight FOR the present germany, and the concepts the EU tries to realise. But maybe for some of the idealism and ideas that once have been there, and meant "German, Germany" in the positive perspective. But that is a dead set of ideas now. Everybody who knows me in this forum since years can hardly imagine after all I have written that I would physically fight for anythign EU, Germany today.

But maybe I would agree on certain needs and would fight AGAINST something, somebody else.

A subtle but important difference.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Everybody who knows me in this forum since years can hardly imagine after all I have written that I would physically fight for anythign EU, Germany today.

Personally I don't think you would fight for anything for any reason.

To fight a war you have to believe that there are things more important than your life and nothing I have read from you "since years" makes me think you value anything besides yourself.

[Catfish]

re Sky Thanks, i did not even mean it that personally, more like a rhetorical question.
I sure would not like to fight, also too old but i think i still would. I mean in the presence of a russian attack, to say this directly.
But to defend the current gender curriculum or Zeitgeist? It would not be about this, it would be on a more basic fight, against an enemy trying to destroy my home/land.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

re Sky Thanks, i did not even mean it that personally, more like a rhetorical question.
I sure would not like to fight, also too old but i think i still would. I mean in the presence of a russian attack, to say this directly.
But to defend the current gender curriculum or Zeitgeist? It would not be about this, it would be on a more basic fight, against an enemy trying to destroy my home/land.

Exactly, and for that same reason you'd fight, whether you're old or not. I'd do the same. If nothing else i'd take pot shots at them from my wheelchair if that's all I could manage.



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