Keep missing torpedoes

[SixthFall]

Hey everyone, going someone can help me here, I keep missing my torpedoes! I'm using sh5 with twos, and everytime I line up a shot ( not the fast 90, I can pull that off pretty easy) I end up missing with my torpedoes going to the rear of the target. I use the manual tdc obviously, and I'll calculate range mostly with the stadimeter, sometimes with the raobf tool. When I find the speed, I usually use the ujagd to time the target, then I'll find the speed using the raobf tool. Ive found that I'll usually get a speed with a decimal, like 5.6 knots, and I've tried to both round up and round down to the nearest knot before entering it into the tdc dial.

Ive even entered the actual number with the UN rounded decimal into the xo dialog box, but it doesn't seem to make a big difference. Usually I'll try to wait for lower gyro angles to shoot, but again, it doesn't make much difference with the out come. Anyone have any ideas?

Or better yet, if you guys only use periscope tools, let me know what your targeting process is so I can try to see where I'm going wrong, as I don't want, or like to use the map to get targeting info.


Thanks guys!

[derstosstrupp]

You are definitely on the right track it sounds like. Minimizing gyro angle is very good practice, because it makes range nearly irrelevant to the solution, so keep doing that as you then don’t even need to do precise range measurements - eyeballing is enough. No stadimeter either on the Standsehrohr attack scope in real life.

My playstyle is no rec manual, as the real guys never had the reliance on manuals like we have them for getting target data - books like Gröner or Weyer were used normally only to identify the ship for purposes of delivering an accurate tonnage estimate. The primary data gathering methods used by the Germans placed no reliance on identification in order to get data. I’ll walk you through how they typically did it, and how it can be done in game.

Overarching rule is get close. Talking under 1000 m. At this range, at a perpendicular track angle, you are allowed up to a knot of speed error, and 10° of AOB error, so take advantage of that.

“Ausdampfen”:
This was probably the most prevalent method of gathering data, getting the most mention in KTBs and also specifically mentioned in the commander’s handbook. I demonstrate this in the video below, but basically what you are doing is adjusting your own course and speed until it appears the bearing no longer changes, and the range no longer changes. You do this by orienting yourself on the target at maximum range, to where you can just see the tips of the mast or the funnel, which gives you a reference point as to range. No need to measure a value, you just know whether it’s getting further or closer, and of course you can see the bearing change. So you tweak your course and speed over about 15 minutes, until it appears the target is “stationary”. Your course and speed are his. Then it’s just a matter of using a calculator, or an attack disc to figure out what the AOB is from course and bearing when you are ready to shoot. Same goes for the below procedure. Incidentally, this was also the primary method used at night.

“Koppeln” (Plotting):
Also very prevalent method, being mentioned in the handbook, and the KTBs. Now, U-boats had no means to measure range on the surface, and so they used the mast tips as a reference, similar to the above procedure, but assigning a range to what they are seeing. With experience you can do this in the game as well, using your binoculars, if you see a target with just a mast showing, it’s about 16 km. So every five minutes, you measure the bearing and estimate the range. Over a half hour or so you can develop a pretty good idea of the target’s course and speed. And you can use Ausdampfen then to refine it if you like. It’s best to use a combination of methods anyway.

“Schätzung” (Estimation):
Also quite common. If there was no time to do the above procedures, this is what they fell back on. Angle on bow was estimated by eye, and speed was typically estimated by the fixed wire method that you are doing also, measuring the time it takes the target to cross the wire. Now, they never quite were sure what the real target length was, but they could estimate it based on clues about the ship, and, since they got very close in to shoot typically, that mitigated errors. Other clues are the bow and stern wake. When using pure estimation, it’s also a very good idea to wait until the AOB appears to be 90 before you shoot. So not a fast 90, at which you are shooting at an AOB slightly less than 90, what I mean is wait until AOB is 90 before you pull the trigger. This was the recommendation historically, because 90 is very easy to see, and it is a good confirmation that the AOB is correct right at the time of the shot.

I won’t cover the approach in detail, because you seem to be able to position yourself well already for the shot. The only other recommendation I would make here is to overtake the target until AOB 0. They typically didn’t dive for a day approach until they reached a point exactly in front of the target. This provides the most flexibility in case the target changes course, and it also delivers a confirmation of the target’s course, because zero AOB is easy to recognize and instantly gives you the target’s actual track. In real life, zigzagging was typical, and so they would dive on the base course, the average course.

As long as your data is correct, and your TDC is set up correctly, there should be no reason why you miss. The above procedures are easy to perform and free you from reliance on any periscope tools or the manual. They take time, but they are done on the surface, with the exception of estimation, so that gives you time to perform them and refine them. Speed can definitely be between knot values. Historically they rounded to the nearest half a knot, so I would suggest doing the same. Also, make sure your tubes are flooded prior to shooting, as that will cause a delay if you don’t remember to do that.

Here is a video of me doing all of the above, in an entire engagement. I think I don’t do the fixed wire, but you are comfortable with that already.. This includes TDC setup and sinking the target as well.

[SixthFall]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

You are definitely on the right track it sounds like. Minimizing gyro angle is very good practice, because it makes rangle nearly irrelevant to the solution, so keep doing that as you then don’t even need to do precise range measurements - eyeballing is enough. No stadimeter either on the Standsehrohr attack scope in real life.

My playstyle is no rec manual, as the real guys never had the reliance on manuals like we have them for getting target data - books like Gröner or Weyer were used normally only to identify the ship for purposes of delivering an accurate tonnage estimate. The primary data gathering methods used by the Germans placed no reliance on identification in order to get data. I’ll walk you through how they typically did it, and how it can be done in game.

Overarching rule is get close. Talking under 1000 m. At this range, at a perpendicular track angle, you are allowed up to a knot of speed error, and 10° of AOB error, so take advantage of that.

“Ausdampfen”:
This was probably the most prevalent method of gathering data, getting the most mention in KTBs and also specifically mentioned in the commander’s handbook. I demonstrate this in the video below, but basically what you are doing is adjusting your own course and speed until it appears the bearing no longer changes, and the range no longer changes. You do this by orienting yourself on the target at maximum range, to where you can just see the tips of the mast or the funnel, which gives you a reference point as to range. No need to measure a value, you just know whether it’s getting further or closer, and of course you can see the bearing change. So you tweak your course and speed over about 15 minutes, until it appears the target is “stationary”. Your course and speed are his. Then it’s just a matter of using a calculator, or an attack disc to figure out what the AOB is from course and bearing when you are ready to shoot. Same goes for the below procedure. Incidentally, this was also the primary method used at night.

“Koppeln” (Plotting):
Also very prevalent method, being mentioned in the handbook, and the KTBs. Now, U-boats had no means to measure range on the surface, and so they used the mast tips as a reference, similar to the above procedure, but assigning a range to what they are seeing. With experience you can do this in the game as well, using your binoculars, if you see a target with just a mast showing, it’s about 16 km. So every five minutes, you measure the bearing and estimate the range. Over a half hour or so you can develop a pretty good idea of the target’s course and speed. And you can use Ausdampfen then to refine it if you like. It’s best to use a combination of methods anyway.

“Schätzung” (Estimation):
Also quite common. If there was no time to do the above procedures, this is what they fell back on. Angle on bow was estimated by eye, and speed was typically estimated by the fixed wire method that you are doing also, measuring the time it takes the target to cross the wire. Now, they never quite were sure what the real target length was, but they could estimate it based on clues about the ship, and, since they got very close in to shoot typically, that mitigated errors. Other clues are the bow and stern wake. When using pure estimation, it’s also a very good idea to wait until the AOB appears to be 90 before you shoot. So not a fast 90, at which you are shooting at an AOB slightly less than 90, what I mean is wait until AOB is 90 before you pull the trigger. This was the recommendation historically, because 90 is very easy to see, and it is a good confirmation that the AOB is correct right at the time of the shot.

I won’t cover the approach in detail, because you seem to be able to position yourself well already for the shot. The only other recommendation I would make here is to overtake the target until AOB 0. They typically didn’t dive for a day approach until they reached a point exactly in front of the target. This provides the most flexibility in case the target changes course, and it also delivers a confirmation of the target’s course, because zero AOB is easy to recognize and instantly gives you the target’s actual track. In real life, zigzagging was typical, and so they would dive on the base course, the average course.

As long as your data is correct, and your TDC is set up correctly, there should be no reason why you miss. The above procedures are easy to perform and free you from reliance on any periscope tools or the manual. They take time, but they are done on the surface, with the exception of estimation, so that gives you time to perform them and refine them. Speed can definitely be between knot values. Historically they rounded to the nearest half a knot, so I would suggest doing the same. Also, make sure your tubes are flooded prior to shooting, as that will cause a delay if you don’t remember to do that.

Here is a video of me doing all of the above, in an entire engagement. I think I don’t do the fixed wire, but you are comfortable with that already.. This includes TDC setup and sinking the target as well.

That is beyond awesome! Thanks for taking the time, I'll check out the video tomorrow once I'm off work!

[SixthFall]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

As long as your data is correct, and your TDC is set up correctly, there should be no reason why you miss. The above procedures are easy to perform and free you from reliance on any periscope tools or the manual. They take time, but they are done on the surface, with the exception of estimation, so that gives you time to perform them and refine them. Speed can definitely be between knot values. Historically they rounded to the nearest half a knot, so I would suggest doing the same. Also, make sure your tubes are flooded prior to shooting, as that will cause a delay if you don’t remember to do that.

Here is a video of me doing all of the above, in an entire engagement. I think I don’t do the fixed wire, but you are comfortable with that already.. This includes TDC setup and sinking the target as well.

Ive more question for ya, when I find target speed with the ujagd and the raobf, I'm usually doing 1-2 knots. Would that make a large enough difference that my torps would undershoot the target at a range of 3000m ish? Maybe my issue is I need to make sure I'm stopped completely.

[derstosstrupp]

Originally Posted by SixthFall

Ive more question for ya, when I find target speed with the ujagd and the raobf, I'm usually doing 1-2 knots. Would that make a large enough difference that my torps would undershoot the target at a range of 3000m ish? Maybe my issue is I need to make sure I'm stopped completely.

For fixed wire, you either need to be stopped, or pointed at the target, so that your own movement doesn’t affect the measurement.

3000 m is way too far. At that range you are allowed almost no error in speed, and same for AOB. This is because the angular target is smaller, making a small error in your gyro angle matter much more. Best practice is under 1000. Dönitz trained his men for 600 m.

[SixthFall]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

For fixed wire, you either need to be stopped, or pointed at the target, so that your own movement doesn’t affect the measurement.

3000 m is way too far. At that range you are allowed almost no error in speed, and same for AOB. This is because the angular target is smaller, making a small error in your gyro angle matter much more. Best practice is under 1000. Dönitz trained his men for 600 m.

Yeah that makes sense. Plus if I'm taking his speed while moving, it would reduce the targets relative velocity compared to me, so that explains it I think. Also, thank you for your YouTube channel, it's an awesome resource that I've used for a while now. Seriously, it's much appreciated!

[derstosstrupp]

Originally Posted by SixthFall

Yeah that makes sense. Plus if I'm taking his speed while moving, it would reduce the targets relative velocity compared to me, so that explains it I think. Also, thank you for your YouTube channel, it's an awesome resource that I've used for a while now. Seriously, it's much appreciated!

You are very welcome, always happy to help! And yes, you are spot on there.