The CHN/ China thread

[Skybird]

They will not stop there. Why should they, if bullying others works so well?

[mapuc]

USA is up to a tough job, trying to convince countries around South China sea that they have to give up.

I doubt countries like Japan, Philippines and Vietnam would let China take all this which belong to everyone.

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

USA is up to a tough job, trying to convince countries around South China sea that they have to give up.
I doubt countries like Japan, Philippines and Vietnam would let China take all this which belong to everyone.

What can they do? Nobody of them is strong enough to survive a war with China at sea and in the air. Even if they build a defence union, I do not see that. Not to mention that China will not limit hostilities to purely traditional military means. Cyberattacks. Currency wars. Market manipulations. China will push them against the wall, and already does so.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

What can they do? Nobod yof them is strogn eogh to surirve a war witbChibna at sea and i n the air. Even if they build a defence union, I do not see that. Not to mentiin that China will not limit hostilities to purely traditional military means. Cyberattacks. Currency wars. Market manipulations.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your statement.

I only tried to tell USA is up to a hard diplomatically job convincing their allied to give what China demand.

USA and its allied could draw a line in the sand..but would this be a good thing ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

They will not stop there. Why should they, if bullying others works so well?

I would have thought the best alternative to war would be for a large collective of countries to stop trading with them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I would have thought the best alternative to war would be for a large collective of countries to stop trading with them.

Yes. Now tell that the export-heavy Germans, and also the many other actors (including the US) weighing short-sighted profit interests and a dogma of "change by trade" as heavier . Here in Europe many are eager to not ease relations, because then all the heavy investments made there would be lost. And so they invest even deeper, and more. Nobody wants to face these losses, and so they ignore China'S aggressiveness.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I would have thought the best alternative to war would be for a large collective of countries to stop trading with them.

Good idea, but other than what Skybird said Germany and the West generally profits very well from producing and buying all kinds of stuff in China; german Bosch has transferred a lot of production to China as VW and others, the US with Apple but also steel industries, and the UK leading by example?

China replaces Germany as UK’s biggest import market

We got used to be able to buy cheap basic resources and meanwhile even high tech products made by workers that earn 40 cents an hour, while "the West" still demands the same old high prices from its western customers by selling chinese products; they are making billions that way.
China already switches to its local inland market to come to terms with future sanctions.

[Jimbuna]

Sooooo.......we're more or less buggered. Nothing can be done that will have a tangible or meaningful effect?

[Skybird]

The question is not what can be done, actually there are quite some things that could be done. The problem is the will and determination is lacking on all sides - except the Chinese side. Their determination is resolute.

China could be isolated. Its economy could be contained and suffocated. A military and war-ready alliance could be formed. Their bullying could be answered on equal terms. Their playgrounds at the UN and in the third world could be isolated and contained. Relations could be frozen. Travel restrictions implemented. Trade deals forbidden. Company cooperation prohibited. Military forces in the region massively beefed up. Cyberwar skills boosted. Tourism stopped.

Its not what could not be done. Its about what is not wanted to be done. doing it would ruin precious, long-held illusions. Many supersmart intelligence beasts would need to admit that they were wrong since decades. A mass extinction of narcissistic egos would follow. Or not - I mean shamelessness is a key ability of politicians.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The question is not what can be done, actually there are quite some things that could be done. The problem is the will and determination is lacking on all sides - except the Chinese side. Their determination is resolute.

China could be isolated. Its economy could be contained and suffocated. A military and war-ready alliance could be formed. Their bullying could be answered on equal terms. Their playgrounds at the UN and in the third world could be isolated and contained. Relations could be frozen. Travel restrictions implemented. Trade deals forbidden. Company cooperation prohibited. Military forces in the region massively beefed up. Cyberwar skills boosted. Tourism stopped.

Its not what could not be done. Its about what is not wanted to be done. doing it would ruin precious, long-held illusions. Many supersmart intelligence beasts would need to admit that they were wrong since decades. A mass extinction of narcissistic egos would follow. Or not - I mean shamelessness is a key ability of politicians.

Many things can be done to tell the Chinese leaders that their behavior is unacceptable - The question in such a case is...how will China interpret the step(s) this alliance may impose against China.

Because this is important.

YES we shall not sit tight and let China have what they want.
We must be prepared that China may see these step(you mentioned) as an act of war.

Markus

[Skybird]

Whether they go to war, is their decision - but we must anyway be absolutely willing and capable to fight a war and to retaliate in any way necessary. Both great force and a long breath are needed.

Else we can pack our things and leave the stage of world history immediately. Most of Europe has done exactly that, while the US, Britian, Taiwan, Japan dream of superiority of theirs that they once had, but probably no more have. One does not want to invest into keeping up to strength with China. China knows this, and thats why they keep on pushing. As I see it, the anti-China alliances in the region that are possible to think of, are impotent and are word monsters only. They lack the needed military muscle. China creates military facts on the ground/ocean. They become superior in technology, and in numbers. Europe will keep on helping them for long time to come, i think. To keep illusions alive. They are so cozy, you see, so precious, so fragile. Lets not provoke China, it might come at a price for Western companies selling the West out in China.

[Skybird]

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1...a-war-on-india

China's border actions against India have been described as a "salami tactic". China seems to be seeking to dominate territory through incremental operations too small to attract international attention and not large enough to spark an actual war with India -- but sufficient to accumulate real results over time in the form of gained territory. It is similar to the tactic China has been using in the South China Sea.

[Catfish]

"HK leader says 'ideologies' pose security risk, teenagers need to be monitored"
(Like in the west, when the young have new ideas (or left ones like justice and equality - gasp!) subdue them! )

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...ed-2021-07-06/

I wonder when or if this kind of government in China will end. There is of course decade-long ideological party indoctrination, and Xi Ji Ping's "party" will be especially "careful" with the young to prevent uprising; but i take it that at some point oppression and surveillance will reach a point that anger and pressure cannot be controlled anymore.

On the other hand, a lot of chinese studying here see no problem with their government in China, one might say "they" only let out the most "adjusted" ones to study abroad, and then there is the fear to be called out by fellow chinese students, but it really looks as if this kind of indoctrination works, unfortunately. A lot see this kind of dictatorship as preferrable, and "superior".

[Rockstar]

[Skybird]

Latvia is the first European country and the first western country having the guts to officially open a Taiwanese embassy in its country, and under the name of "Taiwan".

This puts big countries like Germany to shame.

Taiwan has significantly contributed to the fight and the scientific research on Covid-19. They deserve formal recognition around which Western states and the UN try to weasel aroudn since so long. Appeasement and money grabbing still is put above the right for sovereignty of people. Recently, the weasling delayed deliveries of vaccines to Taiwan for months.

I would wish the US would do with Taiwan what they did in Israel: open formal diplomatic representations like they moved their embassy to Jerusalem (or has bidne reversed that? I honestly don't know, but could imagine it). China is the enemy here, not Taiwan. We must learn to play hard with chian anyway - they will not leave us another chance, but will push the whole world against the wall. Flowery language will not change that.