Thinking about moving to Sh4

Kapitän · 05-03-22, 07:02 AM

Hello Fellow Kaleuns!

A few years ago, I purchased a Sh4 Gold (incl. U-Boat Missions) PC/DVD, with the plan to modify this to the Atlantic Campaign Version, that the GWX Team was working on at the time.

This project was cancelled with the arrival of Sh5.

Because of this, I stayed with Sh3, having adapted the CCoM-Mod and h.sie-patch.

Now, I'm revisiting this topic of moving to Sh4, but would like to pretty much keep a similar game behavior, as described above (if that is possible).

There is a lot of information about Sh4 versions and mods here in the forum, but I'm not quite sure, which of these would apply to my ideas.

If any of you can point me to the right direction, I would much appreciate it.

Many thanks & Happy Hunting!

propbeanie · 05-03-22, 09:43 AM

Staying with the Atlantic in SH4 would mean doing Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3, from years back, or Dark Waters, which is a re-worked OM from Fifi. Both attempt to emulate a modded SH3, and include the original SH4 version of Op Monsun, along with the Med, and other areas. Then there are several offerings from the KSD team and assorted fellows, of which I am not too familiar with, so we'll have to await other's comments. There is nothing though, that can give you the h.sie / Stiebler "hardcore" experience available in SH4, and it does not have the same "claustrophobic" atmosphere of SH3. It also is not as pretty as SH5 - however, it is a better platform than SH3, and not as restricted as SH5 in modding certain aspects, such as adding player subs.

Advantages of SH4 over SH3 is a "dynamic loading" of the campaign files. In SH3, there are 3 campaign files, and they are huge, fully-loading at the start of the game session. The larger the mod, the longer the loading time. The entire Roster, all ships, planes and land units, are loaded into the game. In SH4 though, the campaign is done in "layers", and the game only loads what is in the immediate area. Nothing spawns into the game until it is almost close enough to be seen. The "assets" are tracked in a database, so it looks like the world is alive all around you, but only the immediate area is actually 3D. This reduces load times considerably, and makes the Save game much more stable - so long as the modders (

) don't make things a mess with bad data...

Disadvantages of SH4 are that the devs never quite finished the game (surprise there, eh??), in spite of the "payware" v1.5 "update" that added the U-Boats to SH4. Equipment "upgrades" can be bothersome, and quite a few do fail, especially turm upgrades in OM and DW. I am not certain how deeply the KSD folks got into the weeds with atttempts to "fix" the issues, but surely someone can comment about that. There are work-arounds for the issues, but like a lot of thngs "Silent Hunter", are kludges...

Since you have it, I would load it up, add Dark Waters to it, use MultiSH4 and change the Save folder name, and start experimenting. Run a career from a base / timeframe of your choosing, and do the same in SH3 at the same time. Compare your experience between the two. I like all three games for varying reasons, but for me, it is still SH3 for the U-Boats, and SH4 for the US Pacific, with SH5 (with TWoS) in a distant third...

Kapitän · 05-03-22, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Staying with the Atlantic in SH4 would mean doing Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3, from years back, or Dark Waters, which is a re-worked OM from Fifi. Both attempt to emulate a modded SH3, and include the original SH4 version of Op Monsun, along with the Med, and other areas. Then there are several offerings from the KSD team and assorted fellows, of which I am not too familiar with, so we'll have to await other's comments. There is nothing though, that can give you the h.sie / Stiebler "hardcore" experience available in SH4, and it does not have the same "claustrophobic" atmosphere of SH3. It also is not as pretty as SH5 - however, it is a better platform than SH3, and not as restricted as SH5 in modding certain aspects, such as adding player subs.

Advantages of SH4 over SH3 is a "dynamic loading" of the campaign files. In SH3, there are 3 campaign files, and they are huge, fully-loading at the start of the game session. The larger the mod, the longer the loading time. The entire Roster, all ships, planes and land units, are loaded into the game. In SH4 though, the campaign is done in "layers", and the game only loads what is in the immediate area. Nothing spawns into the game until it is almost close enough to be seen. The "assets" are tracked in a database, so it looks like the world is alive all around you, but only the immediate area is actually 3D. This reduces load times considerably, and makes the Save game much more stable - so long as the modders (

) don't make things a mess with bad data...

Disadvantages of SH4 are that the devs never quite finished the game (surprise there, eh??), in spite of the "payware" v1.5 "update" that added the U-Boats to SH4. Equipment "upgrades" can be bothersome, and quite a few do fail, especially turm upgrades in OM and DW. I am not certain how deeply the KSD folks got into the weeds with atttempts to "fix" the issues, but surely someone can comment about that. There are work-arounds for the issues, but like a lot of thngs "Silent Hunter", are kludges...

Since you have it, I would load it up, add Dark Waters to it, use MultiSH4 and change the Save folder name, and start experimenting. Run a career from a base / timeframe of your choosing, and do the same in SH3 at the same time. Compare your experience between the two. I like all three games for varying reasons, but for me, it is still SH3 for the U-Boats, and SH4 for the US Pacific, with SH5 (with TWoS) in a distant third...

Many thanks, propbeanie!

Okay, so, no h.sie or stiebler hardcode fixes. That's good to know.

My idea is to,
A. stay with the Atlantic but
B. also, be able to go to the Far East.

If I understand correctly, for this I install,
1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD),
2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD),
3a. Dark Waters, from Fifi or
3b. Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3

So far, so good?

Mad Mardigan · 05-03-22, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Many thanks, propbeanie!

Okay, so, no h.sie or stiebler hardcode fixes. That's good to know.

My idea is to,
A. stay with the Atlantic but
B. also, be able to go to the Far East.

If I understand correctly, for this I install,
1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD),
2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD),
3a. Dark Waters, from Fifi or
3b. Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3

So far, so good?

A & B: Yes, with this... would be able to do so, but note.. there are a few... cracks in the floor... that you may or may not slip through & get orders that can... bollux up the works.

That said, there are... workabouts, to get things back on track...

As for 1, 2, 3a/3b...

To run more than 1 copy modded set up... would need the following items...

JSGME (as with adding in mods on SH3)

MultiSH4: needed to set up separate save folders... to avoid cross save game contamination... obviously.

To set up to do so, would need to 1st install the cd/dvd copy into a user created folder... My suggestion as follows:

C:/Games/SH/Megamods/SH4/SH4 (needed to then use the original install as a go to gold standard virgin copy) then can create folders named accordingly to whatever mod set your going to roll with, from here on out.

In creating mod set up SH4 copies, then can just open the regular SH4... copy the guts in there & then paste them into the new minted aptly named folder... easy peasy... mac & cheesy...

Since you ran the initial install, everything will be set up ready to use with the herein copied guts in the new folder.

Only thing you'll then need to do, is to edit the SH4.exe as needed... with compatibility, read only unchecked... & run as admin status...

The only thing am NOT sure of... is of setting it up, to NOT have to have the disk in the drive tray... on that, I'll step aside & let any that know that process... step up to the plate.

M. M.

Mad Mardigan · 05-03-22, 01:09 PM

Do NOT install in the default... ever...

My own opinion, game launchers... games... should studiously, seriously... NEVER, EVER installed in either 'Program files' locations, the standard one or the (x86) one... EVER.!

Did I strongly stress, NEVER... hmmm...

M. M.

Kapitän · 05-03-22, 04:10 PM

Okay, many thanks to all of you for all the information!

Looks to me like, I would like to go with the #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition.

Just to be clear: This Mod would allow me to operate both in the Atlantic and the Far East, yes?

So, what would the installation be:

1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD) - not sure if it is version 1.5, I guess one will only know once it is installed?

2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD) - is this still needed, or is one of the Mod's installed instead of this one?

3. #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition - where do I get this, please?

4. JSGME for activating point 3. - clear

5. MultiSH4: Not sure about this one, as I do not plan to have more than one Sh4 installation ...

6. My current Sh3 installations are installed on D:\ not in any Program Folders - so, if I do this with Sh4 as well, should be okay, yes?

Am I missing anything?

Mad Mardigan · 05-03-22, 12:48 PM

(Word of warning, this will be a bit... lengthy, as there is... a lot of ground to cover...

you have been warned.

)

As propbeanie pointed out, there are numerous choices when it comes to modding up SH4... a lot, but... will only focus on the 2 main ones here. Seeing as how you mentioned of wanting to keep to a certain feel of the game, as you have in SH3... am guessing you mean with staying in the Uboat realm of things... then will focus primarily on that side of the equation.

Of the Uboat side, there are 4 that come to mind here...

1. Original Operation Monsun

AfaIko, this requires v1.5 of SH4 (which by your comment, you should have what with mentioning the 'Gold' version, on cd/dvd available...

)

This mod set, requires a bit of work to set up &... making sure to grab the right mods to add in, to round it out. (this is however, included in the next mod set mentioned...) That said, thee are add in mods, to avoid altogether... however.

2. Oper. Monsun: Dark Waters (latest v6)

This mod set, is the original, cleaned up & refined with some of the additional mods, plus some further refinements, that got their start with SH3 & ported over for SH4.

This, by far, of the 1st 2, is the one to focus on more... in My humble opine... if you just want to focus on this set up option. If not, then onwards we go...

3. KSD II: The original.

This particular mod set, is like O. M.: Dark, a further refinement of the Uboat war... only downside to it... it was originally set up, to accommodate multiplay with all involved... having the same mod set up. In its own right, not really a grand choice... unless you're willing to find others with this set up, to multi play it... which.. not sure if there are or not, others still doing so... To be quite completely, frank about it.

That said, turning to the final option...

3 KSD II: Ace edition.

As with O.M. : Dark, this set up, is a further refinement in some volunteers, took time to iron out translating the orders, messages & such... into an eng. translation. While not perfect... it does make it to where one can roll with it & do a career, which the original didn't.

Those mentioned here, so far... are just the Uboat side of SH4... & 4, does have strengths as well as weaknesses, as outlined by propbeanie in their reply.

The biggest strength is, unlike in 3... you don't get a patrol lasting 24 hours, then left to 1's own devices on what to do, short of hitting up a resupply ship or milk cow uboat... which unless you have it set up to simulate aka faux docking, which was in My opinion... a buzz killer.

4, however... fixed it, to where you can pull, in to a friendly port, restock back up then head back out fairly & relatively pain free... & continue on your merry way... sinking targets.

Downside to that, still... is that any major damages to your sub... have to end up in being repaired, after docking back in at base. As was the case, in real life...

Patrols, can be extended as did happen in real life, by doing a status report... aka radioing home. Where you then get new orders.

Just as with 3, in 4... to log your kills, you'll still have to do a RTB, to register them. Thereby, ending that patrol.

The damage models, are a bit better in 4, over its predecessor, 3... which is, a very big + factor. Some mod sets, have further refinements in that area... which makes it all that much more enjoyable, when you see or watch a target go under. Just be careful, to not get star struck on watching all the time, as the defenders, can be... madder than hornets, out for your head to mount on their trophy wall...

Which brings up 1 final downside... the A.I., as it goes for the enemies, can either be... dumb as a box of rocks, or downright evil nasty... depending... on how the modder, set them up to be... as that are, is still a bit of a work in progress, to refine them... to be more... realistic, in their reactions & in their abilities. Though, even 3... had that as well.

Hope this helps... as always...

M. M.

05-03-22, 07:02 AM	#1
Kapitän The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 1,580 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Thinking about moving to Sh4 Hello Fellow Kaleuns! A few years ago, I purchased a Sh4 Gold (incl. U-Boat Missions) PC/DVD, with the plan to modify this to the Atlantic Campaign Version, that the GWX Team was working on at the time. This project was cancelled with the arrival of Sh5. Because of this, I stayed with Sh3, having adapted the CCoM-Mod and h.sie-patch. Now, I'm revisiting this topic of moving to Sh4, but would like to pretty much keep a similar game behavior, as described above (if that is possible). There is a lot of information about Sh4 versions and mods here in the forum, but I'm not quite sure, which of these would apply to my ideas. If any of you can point me to the right direction, I would much appreciate it. Many thanks & Happy Hunting! __________________ KSDII-Ace/GWX 3.0 Gold/CCoM 10.0 + h.sie-patch; Windows 7 (64-bit); NVIDIA GeForce GTX650 (310.90)

05-03-22, 09:43 AM	#2
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,749 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	Staying with the Atlantic in SH4 would mean doing Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3, from years back, or Dark Waters, which is a re-worked OM from Fifi. Both attempt to emulate a modded SH3, and include the original SH4 version of Op Monsun, along with the Med, and other areas. Then there are several offerings from the KSD team and assorted fellows, of which I am not too familiar with, so we'll have to await other's comments. There is nothing though, that can give you the h.sie / Stiebler "hardcore" experience available in SH4, and it does not have the same "claustrophobic" atmosphere of SH3. It also is not as pretty as SH5 - however, it is a better platform than SH3, and not as restricted as SH5 in modding certain aspects, such as adding player subs. Advantages of SH4 over SH3 is a "dynamic loading" of the campaign files. In SH3, there are 3 campaign files, and they are huge, fully-loading at the start of the game session. The larger the mod, the longer the loading time. The entire Roster, all ships, planes and land units, are loaded into the game. In SH4 though, the campaign is done in "layers", and the game only loads what is in the immediate area. Nothing spawns into the game until it is almost close enough to be seen. The "assets" are tracked in a database, so it looks like the world is alive all around you, but only the immediate area is actually 3D. This reduces load times considerably, and makes the Save game much more stable - so long as the modders ( ) don't make things a mess with bad data... Disadvantages of SH4 are that the devs never quite finished the game (surprise there, eh??), in spite of the "payware" v1.5 "update" that added the U-Boats to SH4. Equipment "upgrades" can be bothersome, and quite a few do fail, especially turm upgrades in OM and DW. I am not certain how deeply the KSD folks got into the weeds with atttempts to "fix" the issues, but surely someone can comment about that. There are work-arounds for the issues, but like a lot of thngs "Silent Hunter", are kludges... Since you have it, I would load it up, add Dark Waters to it, use MultiSH4 and change the Save folder name, and start experimenting. Run a career from a base / timeframe of your choosing, and do the same in SH3 at the same time. Compare your experience between the two. I like all three games for varying reasons, but for me, it is still SH3 for the U-Boats, and SH4 for the US Pacific, with SH5 (with TWoS) in a distant third... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

05-03-22, 01:09 PM	#5
Mad Mardigan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Grand Rapids, Mi. Posts: 2,327 Downloads: 491 Uploads: 0	Do NOT install in the default... ever... My own opinion, game launchers... games... should studiously, seriously... NEVER, EVER installed in either 'Program files' locations, the standard one or the (x86) one... EVER.! Did I strongly stress, NEVER... hmmm... M. M. __________________

05-03-22, 04:10 PM	#6
Kapitän The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 1,580 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Okay, many thanks to all of you for all the information! Looks to me like, I would like to go with the #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition. Just to be clear: This Mod would allow me to operate both in the Atlantic and the Far East, yes? So, what would the installation be: 1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD) - not sure if it is version 1.5, I guess one will only know once it is installed? 2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD) - is this still needed, or is one of the Mod's installed instead of this one? 3. #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition - where do I get this, please? 4. JSGME for activating point 3. - clear 5. MultiSH4: Not sure about this one, as I do not plan to have more than one Sh4 installation ... 6. My current Sh3 installations are installed on D:\ not in any Program Folders - so, if I do this with Sh4 as well, should be okay, yes? Am I missing anything? __________________ KSDII-Ace/GWX 3.0 Gold/CCoM 10.0 + h.sie-patch; Windows 7 (64-bit); NVIDIA GeForce GTX650 (310.90)

05-03-22, 12:48 PM	#7
Mad Mardigan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Grand Rapids, Mi. Posts: 2,327 Downloads: 491 Uploads: 0	(Word of warning, this will be a bit... lengthy, as there is... a lot of ground to cover... you have been warned. ) As propbeanie pointed out, there are numerous choices when it comes to modding up SH4... a lot, but... will only focus on the 2 main ones here. Seeing as how you mentioned of wanting to keep to a certain feel of the game, as you have in SH3... am guessing you mean with staying in the Uboat realm of things... then will focus primarily on that side of the equation. Of the Uboat side, there are 4 that come to mind here... 1. Original Operation Monsun AfaIko, this requires v1.5 of SH4 (which by your comment, you should have what with mentioning the 'Gold' version, on cd/dvd available... ) This mod set, requires a bit of work to set up &... making sure to grab the right mods to add in, to round it out. (this is however, included in the next mod set mentioned...) That said, thee are add in mods, to avoid altogether... however. 2. Oper. Monsun: Dark Waters (latest v6) This mod set, is the original, cleaned up & refined with some of the additional mods, plus some further refinements, that got their start with SH3 & ported over for SH4. This, by far, of the 1st 2, is the one to focus on more... in My humble opine... if you just want to focus on this set up option. If not, then onwards we go... 3. KSD II: The original. This particular mod set, is like O. M.: Dark, a further refinement of the Uboat war... only downside to it... it was originally set up, to accommodate multiplay with all involved... having the same mod set up. In its own right, not really a grand choice... unless you're willing to find others with this set up, to multi play it... which.. not sure if there are or not, others still doing so... To be quite completely, frank about it. That said, turning to the final option... 3 KSD II: Ace edition. As with O.M. : Dark, this set up, is a further refinement in some volunteers, took time to iron out translating the orders, messages & such... into an eng. translation. While not perfect... it does make it to where one can roll with it & do a career, which the original didn't. Those mentioned here, so far... are just the Uboat side of SH4... & 4, does have strengths as well as weaknesses, as outlined by propbeanie in their reply. The biggest strength is, unlike in 3... you don't get a patrol lasting 24 hours, then left to 1's own devices on what to do, short of hitting up a resupply ship or milk cow uboat... which unless you have it set up to simulate aka faux docking, which was in My opinion... a buzz killer. 4, however... fixed it, to where you can pull, in to a friendly port, restock back up then head back out fairly & relatively pain free... & continue on your merry way... sinking targets. Downside to that, still... is that any major damages to your sub... have to end up in being repaired, after docking back in at base. As was the case, in real life... Patrols, can be extended as did happen in real life, by doing a status report... aka radioing home. Where you then get new orders. Just as with 3, in 4... to log your kills, you'll still have to do a RTB, to register them. Thereby, ending that patrol. The damage models, are a bit better in 4, over its predecessor, 3... which is, a very big + factor. Some mod sets, have further refinements in that area... which makes it all that much more enjoyable, when you see or watch a target go under. Just be careful, to not get star struck on watching all the time, as the defenders, can be... madder than hornets, out for your head to mount on their trophy wall... Which brings up 1 final downside... the A.I., as it goes for the enemies, can either be... dumb as a box of rocks, or downright evil nasty... depending... on how the modder, set them up to be... as that are, is still a bit of a work in progress, to refine them... to be more... realistic, in their reactions & in their abilities. Though, even 3... had that as well. Hope this helps... as always... M. M. __________________