[REL] Trigger Maru Overhauled Update BH

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by lonehawknz

Hi Bubble - thanks for a great mod (again!).

I realise that having the superpower of retro-historical-foresight is very unrealistic - but thinking back to the old combo of TMOv2.5 and RSRD-TMO - both the first and second Java Sea battles were represented and I was able to position myself at 112'10 6'10 and observe the fight between the big IJN cruisers and ill-fated ABDA Eastern Strike Force - attempting to intervene if I could. This seems to have been removed in the latest update - or was it that it was there in RSRD but not in TMO?

Likewise, the equally ill-fated flight of Perth and Houston, and Exeter - were all represented - but now appear to be missing?

Or is it me!!!? (entirely possible!)

All assistance gratefully received! Thanks!

I would not consider historical battles being present to be unrealistic, in fact its a great part of the sim, having the major and minor battles, providing chance to participate or just observe. I included many major and minor battles and in the next version of update, have added more.


No, these battles were not scripted in default TMO, they are in RSRD version compatible with TMO. In my TMO Update, I did add the Java Sea and Sunda Strait battles (along with many others) using historical orders of battle, and should show up at historically accurate times and location. While in testing I located the forces involved twice, so can confirmed they do spawn. It is possible you just missed the forces. Make sure you are NOT running RSRD with my TMO Update, they are not compatible and will "break" the traffic i.e. prevent proper spawning etc.

I am out of town so can't look at the mod, but will double check it when return in a couple weeks. If unable to locate, can open up the 41A Jap Task Force campaign layer with the mission editor and should provide a idea.

[lonehawknz]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I would not consider historical battles being present to be unrealistic, in fact its a great part of the sim, having the major and minor battles, providing chance to participate or just observe. I included many major and minor battles and in the next version of update, have added more.


No, these battles were not scripted in default TMO, they are in RSRD version compatible with TMO. In my TMO Update, I did add the Java Sea and Sunda Strait battles (along with many others) using historical orders of battle, and should show up at historically accurate times and location. While in testing I located the forces involved twice, so can confirmed they do spawn. It is possible you just missed the forces. Make sure you are NOT running RSRD with my TMO Update, they are not compatible and will "break" the traffic i.e. prevent proper spawning etc.

I am out of town so can't look at the mod, but will double check it when return in a couple weeks. If unable to locate, can open up the 41A Jap Task Force campaign layer with the mission editor and should provide a idea.

Cracking stuff Sir! It is probably just me - as you say! Thanks for the tips. Merry Christmas!

[lonehawknz]

Originally Posted by lonehawknz

Cracking stuff Sir! It is probably just me - as you say! Thanks for the tips. Merry Christmas!

It was me! The TF's for both actions are there and perform as expected. RSRD had them travelling slightly different tracks. Yours are more accurate.

In "my" Java Sea, Haguro was disabled by Exeter, who was promptly sunk herself, along with De Ruyter and Houston. Java and Perth escaped. Desdiv58 were absolute monsters and sank Harusame and Ushio as they tried to attack me! Four-pipe heroes indeed!

I delivered the coup de grace on Haguro which was pretty much dead in the water, so felt a bit cheaty - but not so different to what happened to Lexington in real life of course.

And just to clear up the earlier comment - I wasn't saying it was unrealistic to represent these battles in the sim. Of course not. Just that a sub commander of the time would of course not have had knowledge of exactly where the encounters would occur, whereas I of course do!! Crystal Ball!

Doesn't alter the fact that, like you, it's the part I enjoy most - watching these battles unfold. Great work Commander!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

what setting would make bubbles(?) appear as boxes?



Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[C:\Ubisoft\TMO_BH\MODS]

100 TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5_UpdateBH Revised Final
110 Nav Map MakeOverTMOUpdate
120 NavMapMakeOverTMOUpdatePatch
130 AlliedShipsTMO
140 ShipsforTMO
150 EAX_Sound_Sim_SH4
160 TMO2_different_smoke_and_splash_effects
170 IJN_Radar_Fix_2
200 DecoysTMO
210 RestoreSDRadarFromStart
220 AAtoDeckguns+Radio
800 TMO_BH_Fixes_MTB

Some textures for sea life were not included by mistake, I released a fix some time ago, which will be included in next release. For now, just enabled Vickers03's Sea Life Mod last, it will solve the problem.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Some textures for sea life were not included by mistake, I released a fix some time ago, which will be included in next release. For now, just enabled Vickers03's Sea Life Mod last, it will solve the problem.

Make sure to note... that there is, 2 different versions in vicker03's latest version of that mod.

1 for the "Atlantic" region...

2, is for the "Pacific" region...

Just so ya know...



M. M.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Some textures for sea life were not included by mistake, I released a fix some time ago, which will be included in next release. For now, just enabled Vickers03's Sea Life Mod last, it will solve the problem.

thank you.

[KaleunMarco]

BH

discovered this, by accident, today.

received this error when performing a Validate Mission on Sink Yellow Sea 01 with the Mission Editor.



when i checked the Localization text, there was a message.
but the message is not supposed to be here (below).




the message needs to be in the Event-Message box, in the lower part of this screen:



i do not think it is critical but you probably want to fix it in your next release.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

BH

discovered this, by accident, today.

received this error when performing a Validate Mission on Sink Yellow Sea 01 with the Mission Editor.



when i checked the Localization text, there was a message.
but the message is not supposed to be here (below).




the message needs to be in the Event-Message box, in the lower part of this screen:



i do not think it is critical but you probably want to fix it in your next release.

This is not a error by my update as I did no work on the patrol objectives. However, next update will have the patrol objectives reworked.

[pbar1469]

Hi all, BH.

On my first early war campaign, somewhere near Truk. Found a convoy with 2 destroyers and 4 merchants. After a failed/sucessful attack (tried several times), those two destroyers converge on me like there is no tomorrow.
As soon as I release the fish, I dive to 400 ft (with a gar), running silent, 1 knot, and no matter where I turn to, no matter how long, those two little cans always reck me up with DC's. I was under the impression that early war sonar would not reach that deep.
They do loose track of me for a bit, then ping around, and with me sitting there at 400ft, even 0 knots, silent running, they somehow magically find me and drop the DC with surgeon precision on top of me... Am I assuming something wrong?
I am using the Mod as described with no other extras except for "no trembling" - underwater screencaps and a skin (SH4_original_4k_light_gray).

Thanks!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by pbar1469

Hi all, BH.

On my first early war campaign, somewhere near Truk. Found a convoy with 2 destroyers and 4 merchants. After a failed/sucessful attack (tried several times), those two destroyers converge on me like there is no tomorrow.
As soon as I release the fish, I dive to 400 ft (with a gar), running silent, 1 knot, and no matter where I turn to, no matter how long, those two little cans always reck me up with DC's. I was under the impression that early war sonar would not reach that deep.
They do loose track of me for a bit, then ping around, and with me sitting there at 400ft, even 0 knots, silent running, they somehow magically find me and drop the DC with surgeon precision on top of me... Am I assuming something wrong?
I am using the Mod as described with no other extras except for "no trembling" - underwater screencaps and a skin (SH4_original_4k_light_gray).

Thanks!

Well, once they spot the wakes of torpedoes or ship is torpedoed, AI assumes you are in X position. So they go towards it, and AI shifts from "normal" mode to "alert" mode, which heightens their sensitivity to contacts and they go searching. They are likely detecting you on active sonar once searching and make their attack. There are a variety of factors that play into things such as sea state, weather, thermal layer, RPM's you motors are making, silent running, skill level, and model of passive/active sonar the vessel is equipped with.


Definitely never want to go to 0 knts, sitting still, you are a easy stationary target. They know where you, what depth you're sitting at and kind of easy to hit. Even 1 knot is too slow, just make sure on silent running and hit ahead 1/3. Look at RPM gauge in the conning tower by the helmsman. It'll read around 80 RPM which is fine. In a silent running, long as under 100 RPM 0 knot or 1 knot, is just too slow, makes a easy target.

Honestly, should never just go right to 400 feet for several reasons. One, in Gar. Tambor with test depth of 250, 400 is really pushing it. as its out of that 100 foot safety window. Yes, can go deeper but danger of immediate hull collapse is heightened by depth charge explosions. SH 4 does simulate the different effects. Pressures caused by DC at different depths. You take a good DC hit at 400 feet, the effects are multiplied quite a bit more than would at say 350. Has to do with hull strength, max depth, etc. I won't bore you with all testing details, but I tested this extensively when making the mod.

A great tactic to use in any boat but will refer to Gar since you are in a Gar Class.

First, instead of 400, go to 250ft, your test depth in a Gar. They come in, pinging you , getting a read on you, thinking you are at 250 ft. Listening carefully, when you hear the roar of their engines because are above, about to drop, , go to ahead full for about 30 seconds and BEFORE they drop, just after they stop pinging(you are in the DD's blind spot for a few seconds" ordered 450 feet so your boat goes in a dive, but as close 300 feet, hit the "A" key to level off around 300 feet. Once hear splashes of DC dropping water, go ahead FLANK until hear some DC explosions. This "speed burst" will get you out from under most charges. After the run go all stop and let the momentum carry you for next minute or so, then go ahead 1/3 again. Next run go to 325 ft, then 350 and even 375. Try bouncing back up to 350 and 325, then back to 375. Over time, changes confuse the AI. You should noticed when pull this off correctly,( esp in earlier war as depth charges in early war are different than the Type 2 used in later war) that most, sometimes all of the explosion will be above your sub, at the last depth they pinged you before dropping. Example...you were at 250 feet when they pinged you last, you are at 300 feet when charges detonate, likely will all
be above or most.


Course changes...always keep about 5-10 degrees rudder on. I keep 10 on and then when they are about to drop I go to rudder admiships for duration of the speed burst, then go 10-15 after for a few minutes while the momentum of sub slows, then back to 5 degrees rudder in OPPOSITE direction it was at time of the DC attack. After couple runs and rudder is to port, go to starboard. This keeps you from going in a strait course/line and confuses the AI. This was a real tactic used by skippers, among them Admiral Thomas Dykers, CO of USS JACK.


Basically, rinse and repeat these procedures and you can get away most of the time.

Enemy AI is on a timer, appears to be hardcoded, basically if they go X amount of time without solid contact on you, they will give up but if regain contact, clock starts over usually. You, as real subs had to do, have basically endure the counter attack and outlast them. Far as them losing you, and regaining contact, that happens and did happen during the war.

I just finished getting depth charged in a Gato (so quite similar to Gar) in November 1944 in Area 9-East China Sea South of Tsushima (Korea) Strait.

Max depth is 315 feet. I survived using tactics above, with minimal damage in this attack. Never went below 300 feet.

I've been depth charged many times since started this career in January 1944 and never went below 400 feet on purpose, one DC pattern above me when I was at 395 ft(Im in a Gato with test depth of 300 ft vs 250 in a Gar) pushed me to 410 briefly but never went below on purpose and survived.


Other factors that play in into this again are the escorts skills level set in the files, as well as their mission. Escorts assigned to convoys do not tend to hunt for as long, (some will) while those assigned to independent patrol, will hunt you quite a bit longer. Again, there are different variables which can influence this.


One reason I redesigned the damage model and depth charges in TMO was so player could stay at a realistic and safe operating depth, get depth charges for hours and not get killed via "insta death" i.e. charges put too many hit points on the sub and hull collapsed. Subs were usually lost because over time key equipment was knocked out, combined with flooding from leaks caused etc and had to surface or could not surface. Now, very close charges can still cause hull damage and on rare occasion total collapse. Again, depends on boat what depth etc are.



Far as depth enemy sonar can reach you. In real life I believe its a misconception the Japanese sonar could not reach beyond certain depth in any phase of the war. In early war boats rarely went below 300-350 feet. Most boats at start had their test depth of 250 until Gatos came round. Of course they found boats could go deeper , that test depths were conservative estimates but Japanese could track them and force them deep. I twas their depth charges used early on were setting for 250 ft (which I believe was early exploders max depth) and then 300 ft, well a idiot Congressman by name of Andrew J. May bragged to press about this and Japanese found out, introduced Type 2 depth charge with exploders could be set deeper.


Then we had deep diving boats from mid 1943 on in the Balao, which could go quite deep and Japanese were surprisingly using active sonar to track them at 500+ feet. Even before their more advanced late war sets were in service.



Far as TMO sonar depth goes, there is no magic depth to get away, if there were, it would get boring quick all player would have to do is go to x depth. Again, depends on a variety of factors as listed above. Again, you have to outlast them until they give up. Make them lost solid contact with you(They may continue to ping, drop charges etc but does not mean have solid contact. )


While there is no magic "get away depth" , different models of sonar passive and active, become less effective at different depths. The default early war sound and each ranging gear the Type 93-1A(Active) and 93-1P(Passive)
were far too ineffective, to the point I found early war TMO boring. Early war was no cake walk. Read plenty of early patrol reports, subs often took hours and hours of beatings by depth charges.

With the 93-1A and 1-P, basically, player had to get to 300 or so feet and could easily escape, would be lucky if a DC attack lasted 20 minutes in most cases.

So I removed the early war and gave nearly all of them mid war gear from the start. Some have a mix of the early Type 93-3A and 3P. This mad early war escorts more effective and not total incompetent pushovers were previously, in most cases.

Finally, you said escorts were two destroyers, I assume actual DD's , if actual DD's , you likely ran into some top notch escorts, set to ELITE skill level. They can be a challenge.


Hope this helps. Let me know if have anymore questions.

[pbar1469]

Hi BH,

Thanks so much for your extensive answer!
I now have a much better understanding of what your changes brought in to TMO.
I'll re read all of it once again, and give it a few more tries!

Thanks so much!

Pedro

[KaleunMarco]

i cannot find the proper post to reply to, so please forgive me.

there was a minor discussion not long ago about being swept off the conning tower during tough weather and it was suggested that changing the Surface Depth might help.

i tried a deeper setting and the results were no better than standard depth.
then i tried a shallower setting and the results are much better.
6 m for a Balao seems to keep everyone in place during a 15 m/s wind.
rolling from the additional exposed freeboard does not seem to be a problem for either the crew or handling the boat and we do not seem to be detected any more than we usually do.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

i cannot find the proper post to reply to, so please forgive me.

there was a minor discussion not long ago about being swept off the conning tower during tough weather and it was suggested that changing the Surface Depth might help.

i tried a deeper setting and the results were no better than standard depth.
then i tried a shallower setting and the results are much better.
6 m for a Balao seems to keep everyone in place during a 15 m/s wind.
rolling from the additional exposed freeboard does not seem to be a problem for either the crew or handling the boat and we do not seem to be detected any more than we usually do.

No prob. T he post was in the Dark Waters forum for U Boats, I replied there and in the Type VIIB had mixed results, but somewhat better. I rarely have the issue in fleetboats likely because the bridge/conning tower is higher off the water.

[4H_Ccrashh]

Technically this is a small alteration for the Fleet Boat Interior MOD for TMO.


I'm putting it here because the new TMO has a pre-war career starting point.


I'm a details kinda geek.


Read that as borderline obsessive / compulsive to the point my wife sometimes dreams of putting a steak knife in my neck. (Stay tuned for the next episode of "COPS")


Any-who, I started the Prewar campaign. Decided to go with the USS Pike instead of Sailfish. I've never tried the P-boat class

After moving the deck gun aft to where it is belongs in mid 1941, I noticed that the publications in the wardroom and in the yeoman's office were post Pearl Harbor attack.

This tweek puts prewar news papers and magazines aboard the boat. They are dated a month or two prior to the start date of the first pre-war patrol.

One of the newspapers is Brit. I figured out in the Asiatic Fleet you get news wherever you can find it.


Drop in JSGME and activate. Can be done in port or on patrol.





https://www.mediafire.com/file/83c6i...APERS.rar/file

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by 4H_Ccrashh

Technically this is a small alteration for the Fleet Boat Interior MOD for TMO.


I'm putting it here because the new TMO has a pre-war career starting point.


I'm a details kinda geek.


Read that as borderline obsessive / compulsive to the point my wife sometimes dreams of putting a steak knife in my neck. (Stay tuned for the next episode of "COPS")


Any-who, I started the Prewar campaign. Decided to go with the USS Pike instead of Sailfish. I've never tried the P-boat class

After moving the deck gun aft to where it is belongs in mid 1941, I noticed that the publications in the wardroom and in the yeoman's office were post Pearl Harbor attack.

This tweek puts prewar news papers and magazines aboard the boat. They are dated a month or two prior to the start date of the first pre-war patrol.

One of the newspapers is Brit. I figured out in the Asiatic Fleet you get news wherever you can find it.


Drop in JSGME and activate. Can be done in port or on patrol.





https://www.mediafire.com/file/83c6i...APERS.rar/file

Very nice! Immersion matters in subsims so not OCD, it paying attention to details. I am sure vickers03 will appreciate it as well for the change.

I was very OCD with campaign lol...esp on historic movements of battles, certain convoys, etc. I could have finished a lot faster but the OCD when it comes to history and this sim kicked lol.

Far as deck gun. Did you use the aft deck gun mod from original TMO? This was included in download I believe, or that may have been V1.0

If not aware, default position for deck gun is forward due to the deck gun upgrade bug, but the aft deck gun was included. I use it when starting early war careers as well.