Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

If it was the Russians, it was not on the orders from Moscow.
But if a Russian screwed up, he's wishing he'd been on that that plane.

Putin's not a psycho. He wouldn't shoot down a passenger airliner for an excuse to invade Ukraine, let alone a passenger airliner from a completely neutral country.

Agreed. It can't be ruled out that it wasn't a Russian missile, but if it was then it was not on orders from Moscow. Most likely it was a pro-Russian seperatist force, but the grey area is how they got the SAM system to shoot it down with, either from Ukraine (entirely possible via defections, they have managed to get a lot of IFVs in this manner) or from Russia.

It is, also quite possible that it was the Ukraine, as CCIP has pointed out, it's not the first time that this has happened, 70 people died last time IIRC.
It's entirely possible we'll never find out for sure.

[Oberon]

[eddie]

Have heard reports that the rebels had captured an Air Defense System facility from the Ukrainian Army earlier in that area. If so, thats where they would have gotten their hands on the missle system.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Our plane that was shot down by democratic Ukraine was not even in their air space!

Yeah and one hundred miles beyond the range of it's missiles. Pretty neat trick if you ask me.

I vote for incompetence of somebody in Ukrainian army - they didn't show much professionalism until present moment. They have BUK systems which can reach a plane on echelone. And they've done it with our plane before. Anyway I don't see much profit for People's Republic of Donetsk or People's Republic of Lugansk to do such stupidity - it won't help them gain much sympathy anywhere.
Another thing - IF PRD and PRL really have a BUK system, IF they have managed to put it into operational status (which we don't know) and IF they've really shot down a plane over their territory - then according to it's speed and range of BUK system it should have fallen on OUR territory and not on Ukrainian or PRD.
On the other hand - if a plane received a salvo from Ukrainian BUK which they have plenty in that area, then it had fallen "right there right now".
And then again - it was following Ukrainian dispatch - and it's according to Ukrainian dispatch commands it have flown right into the conflict area.
Flightpath was lying much to the south from that places on previous days.

I think that's wishful thinking on your part.

Again:

Why would Ukraine shoot at an high flying east bound plane when the rebels they're fighting supposedly do not have any aircraft?

If the rebels do not have AA capability then how did they manage to shoot down several Ukrainian military aircraft already?

And finally why did the rebels boast on twitter that they had downed an aircraft right after the event, then take those tweets down once it became known that it was a civilian aircraft?

I place the blame squarely on Russia's head here. They are arming the separatists with heavy weapons so they bear the responsibility for their mistakes.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Flightpath was lying much to the south from that places on previous days.

Oh and BTW.

Flight path and where contact with the airliner was lost. Not the location:

[eddie]

Have seen on the news, that the first teams to investigate the site, (from Europe) have arrived, but the rebels are restricting their movements, and they have not been able to locate the Black Box yet. Locals have been walking through the crash site, dead bodies still all over the place. Like the locals are equipped to handle something like this!

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Oh Lord, anyone remembers this.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Oh Lord, anyone remembers this.

Yep, I can even remember the tune
Whistled it when i the Shambles in York

[Oberon]

The opening menu for II was just awesome even without the music.

I really must get the HD version on the next sales, I lost a lot of hours to AoEII whilst creating the perfect defensive castle.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The opening menu for II was just awesome even without the music.

The first thing I thought when I saw the Shambles.


Send me a PM when you see a sale. I'll buy it and we can play it online.

[CCIP]

I would still be cautious on jumping into conclusions about where the SAM came from - it's pretty certain at this point that it was launched from predominantly rebel-held territory, but I would be cautious with attributing its origin/operators to Russia just yet. We don't have the whole picture.

As for putting the blame on Russia generally, that's not reasonable in any "hard" definition - to me, this is an example of the broader failure of the "may be an SOB, but our SOB" approach to foreign conflicts and proxy wars, and Russia is hardly the only one responsible for atrocities caused by it. One only has to keep in mind that groups from Taliban to ISIS today were at one point largely armed by the US, both directly and indirectly, and yet most people here wouldn't go around saying the US government and military need to be held directly responsible for the recent massacres in Iraq or Pakistan.

I think the message here should instead be that "our SOB" just doesn't work and EVERYONE needs to quit it as soon as possible. This applies to both sides in the Ukraine, by the way. More to the point, this not only does nothing to reveal Russia's control of the rebels, but quite the opposite - if these groups were under Russia's operational command and part of Russia's military and intelligence infrastructure, arguably this shootdown would have never happened. It shows a rudimentary lack of intelligence-sharing and operational control by Russia of even the rebels' most advanced weapons in the simplest situations. You can't get any simpler than an aircraft that's on radar, on ADS-B, flying a filed and commonly-used flight plan, talking to ATC, etc. etc. This is not a difficult situation for a military force controlled by a state like Russia. The problem is they aren't under Russia's control at all, but are a poorly-organized, poorly-disciplined, and arguably totally out of control and out of bounds of international law, and that's what makes the situation so volatile. The situation in Eastern Ukraine is not a menacing superpower secretly moving pawns and pulling strings - it's medieval politics and warfare with modern weapons.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I would still be cautious on jumping into conclusions about where the SAM came from - it's pretty certain at this point that it was launched from predominantly rebel-held territory, but I would be cautious with attributing its origin/operators to Russia just yet. We don't have the whole picture.

As for putting the blame on Russia generally, that's not reasonable in any "hard" definition - to me, this is an example of the broader failure of the "may be an SOB, but our SOB" approach to foreign conflicts and proxy wars, and Russia is hardly the only one responsible for atrocities caused by it. One only has to keep in mind that groups from Taliban to ISIS today were at one point largely armed by the US, both directly and indirectly, and yet most people here wouldn't go around saying the US government and military need to be held directly responsible for the recent massacres in Iraq or Pakistan.

I think the message here should instead be that "our SOB" just doesn't work and EVERYONE needs to quit it as soon as possible. This applies to both sides in the Ukraine, by the way. More to the point, this not only does nothing to reveal Russia's control of the rebels, but quite the opposite - if these groups were under Russia's operational command and part of Russia's military and intelligence infrastructure, arguably this shootdown would have never happened. It shows a rudimentary lack of intelligence-sharing and operational control by Russia of even the rebels' most advanced weapons in the simplest situations. You can't get any simpler than an aircraft that's on radar, on ADS-B, flying a filed and commonly-used flight plan, talking to ATC, etc. etc. This is not a difficult situation for a military force controlled by a state like Russia. The problem is they aren't under Russia's control at all, but are a poorly-organized, poorly-disciplined, and arguably totally out of control and out of bounds of international law, and that's what makes the situation so volatile. The situation in Eastern Ukraine is not a menacing superpower secretly moving pawns and pulling strings - it's medieval politics and warfare with modern weapons.

Agreed...most probably nothing is actually anywhere near what it initially appears to be.

A right royal mess.

[Jimbuna]

A second convoy is planned but might this be the 'trojan horse'?

Russia plans to send another humanitarian convoy into eastern Ukraine "in the next few days", Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said.

Mr Lavrov said the humanitarian situation there was "deteriorating".

Ukraine did not authorise the first convoy, which returned to Russia at the weekend, fearing it carried military equipment for pro-Russia separatists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28924945

Russia's dispatch of a huge convoy of lorries carrying humanitarian aid to east Ukraine has raised suspicions about its intentions, given its support for the rebels fighting the Ukrainian government there.

It is believed the aid is meant primarily for the besieged rebel-held city of Luhansk, home to 425,000 people before the conflict erupted in April and now under government siege.

After waiting more than a week, lorries began crossing the border on 22 August without Ukrainian permission or Red Cross escort, after Russia accused the authorities in Kiev of delaying the convoy's entry unreasonably.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28752878

[MH]

The problem is they aren't under Russia's control at all, but are a poorly-organized, poorly-disciplined, and arguably totally out of control and out of bounds of international law, and that's what makes the situation so volatile. The situation in Eastern Ukraine is not a menacing superpower secretly moving pawns and pulling strings - it's medieval politics and warfare with modern weapons.

They did receive a lot of encouragement and also supplies from Russia.
This whole mess was started with unidentified Russian solders taking over some territories in eastern Ukraine and later support of rebels.
So yes , Russia is responsible for this mess... although somebody probably was very upset over the stupidity of the rebels.

[Skybird]

Considering how much certainty was expressed over claimed reliable information about who shot down the Malaysian Airliner and with what, it has become suspiciously quiet about the examination report - which is said to be already finished at least in a draft, but being withheld by pressure from Washington. It is expected that the Netherlands and Malaysia also already possess hardcopies of the report

Instead, already over three weeks ago, there was this public letter by intel veterans to the POTUS.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29...aine-evidence/

The Malaysians express growing doubt on the story's solution as being painted by Kiev and the West:

http://www.nst.com.my/node/23569?m=1?d

What that report will be worth after it has been subject to so long time of tailoring and cleaning it of info they do not want to reveal or misinformation that they want to see being spread in the public opinion, remains to be seen. I tend to keep a very tight grab on my trust.

The black boxes have been examined, the results are to be published in a separate report that is planned to be released in early September.

-----

Meanwhile there are more reports on that Ukrainian army getting its butts served to it by the Russians/separatists, and on a silver plate with plenty of dressing. Their losses (the Ukrainians') seem to be extreme.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...0&postcount=32