Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

You have a anti-west sentiment that would humble a jihadist, that much is sure.

But you seem to refuse to see anything on the American side of the fence, sure I think only a handful of people in this thread are claiming that America and Europe are apostles of mercy, but you seem to be on the side of the fence that is blaming everything on America and the west. Perhaps it is your intense hatred of the EU and western capitalism which is affecting the way in which you present your arguments?

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

You have a anti-west sentiment that would humble a jihadist, that much is sure.

But you seem to refuse to see anything on the American side of the fence, sure I think only a handful of people in this thread are claiming that America and Europe are apostles of mercy, but you seem to be on the side of the fence that is blaming everything on America and the west. Perhaps it is your intense hatred of the EU and western capitalism which is affecting the way in which you present your arguments?

I'm sure he'll tell you that your wrong.

[HunterICX]

I hope you know what you're getting yourself into.

[Betonov]

My Moldavian co-worker says the Russians will atack.
I think he may be overestimating Putin but he's prety sure about it.

[Skybird]

To compare my determination with the of a jihadist, is an offence. I am in strong defence of many historical aspects, gains and benefits of Western history, culture and tradition, in many different discussions, from Islam, over ethics and culture, to science, And when doiung that I often have been attacked for doing that because they are in opposition to many of the perverted interpretations of these in modern times; and when I imply or criticise or point out that the modern west is just a perverted shadow of that, rotting within and already smelling like dead fish, having corrupted the values it claims to stand for and plotting course for its own collapse - you call that the mindset of murderous barbar who got his head stuck in primitive medieval mindsets and power fantasies and murderous hate for humanity and humanism?

Check your own credulity. By the ring in your nose you allow them to lead you around in the manege, that is your freedom; and you applaud the regime that feeds your appetite for wallowing group emotions and pathos and glorious symbols with nothing behind them than abuse, that is your democratic choice; and you prevent yourself from ever questioning the limits of thinking they have declared in order to secure their power over you and their interests at your costs: that is your reason. Congratulations, you are the ideal citizen and subject.

Next, please specify where in the context of this thread - Ukraine's crisis - I said it is all America's fault.

I said not more and not less than - summarising now - that America (and the West) has had its hands plunged deep into the muddy waters, helping to stirr what already was not clean Ukrainian water anymore, that expectations of how Russia would react, were misled (and very foolishly so), and that one was not prepared at all for the reaction the Russians showed up with. It seems to me that many Western politicians until today have not understood in how far their own arrogance have encouraged and triggered the Russian response, not since last year's autumn, not since the last twenty years. Wanting to bring the Ukraine into the EU, and NATO in the wake of that, was a plot so stupidly thought out that one should not really need to leave any more words of explanations about it. real or ust imagined morals and ethics, wishes and intentions for better or for worse have nothing, NOTHING, to do with it. It's more about the political equivalent to elemental physics. If you throw the apple up into the air it sooner or later reverse, and falls back to the ground. Is that so difficult to see in advance?

What I now laugh about is that many stood there, staring into the sky while expecting the apple to fly higher and higher and up and away. Instead it fell back and hit them right between their teeth and makes them look like a walking grin two meter wide. The laughing is at the idiots - and they deserve every single decibel of it.

This, not more and not less, is what I hold the West and America responsible for, this, and the notorious anti-Russian paranoia that America has been maintaining since the end of the cold war - and that after 20 years finally has indeed revived and created the old rival again that Americans so desperately have looked out and wished for. There were chances to form closer ties with Russia, after the early 90s. And we decided to let them go by in an bid for tightening our grip on Russia and our short-term business profits. That we would do so only at the cost of trading away our trustworthiness and credibility, is something that one was not conered for. And Russia learned the harsh lessons twenty years ago.

All that does not qualify for an assessment of having helped to keep the pressure inside the Ukrainian cooker. The unrest even may be welcomed by those hoping that in a turmoil the Russians could be driven out and EU and NATO moving in. If you think hoping so would be cynical, then you have not realsied the heart and core of political business. There is no room for sentimentalities - not even cynism. Politics is about power. Putin understands that. Many Gutmenschen in the West do not.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

I hope you know what you're getting yourself into.

I'm doing it again, aren't I? I keep trying not to, but then I find myself doing it again and again. What is this madness?

Originally Posted by Betonov

My Moldavian co-worker says the Russians will atack.
I think he may be overestimating Putin but he's prety sure about it.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised, I thought that Russia wouldn't go for Crimea, but then they did, so I'm not ruling anything out any more.
I presume he refers to Eastern Ukraine, and not Moldovia.
It would not surprise me in the least to see Russian forces move in, but I honestly don't think that they'll need to just yet, just keep funnelling arms and funds into the pro-Russian militia to keep the thing bubbling away. I think that if Russia moves into eastern Ukraine then NATO would be sorely tempted to move into western Ukraine and that's a situation that neither side wants, so it's better for Russia to just keep the temperature of the situation at around the level it is right now.
I have a suspicion that Putin temporarily lost control of the pro-Russian forces in eastern Ukraine, and that's why the alledged Vostok forces have arrived, to beat a few heads and restore things to the Moscow line. Time will tell if the pro-Russian forces start changing their game.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I presume he refers to Eastern Ukraine, and not Moldovia.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm doing it again, aren't I? I keep trying not to, but then I find myself doing it again and again. What is this madness?

Something not even a trapdoor can fix apparently

Originally Posted by Oberon

You have a anti-west sentiment that would humble a jihadist, that much is sure.

But you seem to refuse to see anything on the American side of the fence, sure I think only a handful of people in this thread are claiming that America and Europe are apostles of mercy, but you seem to be on the side of the fence that is blaming everything on America and the west. Perhaps it is your intense hatred of the EU and western capitalism which is affecting the way in which you present your arguments?

Mr hammer hits Mr nail squarely on the head.

To compare my determination with the of a jihadist, is an offence.

The truth is not an offence.
It might be uncomfortable truth for you but it is true non the less.
Though I would go further and say that with your weird extremist ideologies you are a jihadist of the extreme fundamentalist wahibi flavour.

[MH]

I am not. I understand that Russia's perspective and interests are not what the West wants it to define as, and I understand how twisted the Western views are, on so many levels. Any Wetsern attempt to define Russia'S interests, are not Russia'S interests, but the West'S interests. That is what Washington, and others, notoriously lie about.

No worries we all know that at the end of the day it is about the interests.
But you know...some times geopolitical interest go hand in hand with local ones.
Nothing wrong with that.
It seems that Russians' ones conflict with the local in this case.
Most Ukrainian folks seem to understand that sticking with the west might be more beneficial to them besides the national issue.

"We are no friends, we are partners. Nations have no friendships, nations have interests." And this partner in some issues, rival in others, enemy in some, that the US is for Germany today, is talking as split-tongued acts as conspiratory and plays as dirty as any other nation there is. No sign of holiness anywhere. America is no moral compass for the world anymore. And one could ask if it ever was - maybe it was more an utopia than a reality.

It is all real politics then.
You should have no problem with that no?
Germany is one of the most dominant European courtiers due to the fact that it was seen as good strategy.
Due to political interest if you will...so enjoy.

[jokker]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Check your own credulity. By the ring in your nose you allow them to lead you around in the manege, that is your freedom; and you applaud the regime that feeds your appetite for wallowing group emotions and pathos and glorious symbols with nothing behind them than abuse, that is your democratic choice; and you prevent yourself from ever questioning the limits of thinking they have declared in order to secure their power over you and their interests at your costs: that is your reason. Congratulations, you are the ideal citizen and subject.

What I now laugh about is that many stood there, staring into the sky while expecting the apple to fly higher and higher and up and away. Instead it fell back and hit them right between their teeth and makes them look like a walking grin two meter wide. The laughing is at the idiots - and they deserve every single decibel of it.

I'm late to this discussion. The ring in my nose expression is silly. My direct observation of life in Europe and North America is quite favorable on many levels. I am influenced by the fact we in the west just live a more comfortable life with benefits the majority of the world doesn't enjoy, The possibility of hard work turning into a significant degree of financial independence is pretty uncommon for most of the world population. Europe has a safely net that is second to none. America has a long tradition of independence regarding uncensored speech. Our wealthy came about by building something useful, not being connected to a party. The Russian billionaires just had the connections to gain access to the industries built with public funds. At least our billionaires created something of value for the masses.

If your successful in the west, the system over time will tax it away and distribute of the wealth to its citizens.

Rule of law prevails here. I will conceed that corruption is a universal human trait. As is greed, as are other forms of corruption especially power grabbing. In the west we at least try to rebalance the wrong, (though not being as successful as I'd want).

But we in the west (including the capitalist far east) do live with many benefits that the remainder does not. You being in Germany should know that very well. I don't get your point of view, my travels worldwide have given me a first hand view of just how good I have it.

I too was excited for Russia when Boris stood on the side of radical change. I think when the KGB cronies ended up running the government along with and supported by the robber barons, the die was cast. My belief Russia is going to turn into a oil state with a very few having substantial money and the vast majority scraping by. Massive middle class in Russia, I am doubtful it will happen. I truly hope I'm wrong.

If you're unhappy with your current situation, just move to where you admire the system

bob

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Something not even a trapdoor can fix apparently

"I'm gonna need a bigger door..."

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Oberon

"I'm gonna need a bigger door..."

Quint says this thread has jumped the shark.

[Skybird]

EU fat cats just never learn, no matter what.

Czech EU commissioner Stefan Füle said that Ukraine, Moldavia and - tatarataa! - Georgia should become EU members.

The freakiness in EUpistan knows no limits, it seems. Georgia...? Has that fool never seen a map when visiting school? That is north-east of Turkey - that is Asia, that is the Middle East: that is anything - but not Europe! What's next? "Solving" the dispute with Iran by getting it into the EU, and Libya and why not Nigeria as well? Tajikistan maybe? Chechnya?

Needless to point out that in the same interview with German newspaper Die Welt he said that the EU should be turned into an stronger governmental and institutional framework. More dictatorship from Brussel, in other words.

Nothing can ever be achieved against such bitter determination to act and decide stupidly, arrogantly and in denial of reality. It's a psychopathology.

We need fatter cats that fart hotter farts.

[Oberon]