Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[mapuc]

There are those who is angry that Ukraine gets these Cluster bombs.
I could understand them if they were used against civilian targets, which they ain't going to be.
They will be used at the front.

Edit
Russia have used these type since start of the war against civilians in Ukraine
https://twitter.com/reshetz/status/1677351108996472839
End edit

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

Well the issue with Cluster munitions is more about the hypocrisy of the West. Most NATO members, Germany, France, UK, Canada, Italy, Spain, etc. signed the "Convention on Cluster Munitions" where they undertook:

Countries that ratify the convention will be obliged "never under any circumstances to":[7]

a. Use cluster munitions;
b. Develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer to anyone, directly or indirectly, cluster munitions;
c. Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a State Party under this Convention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conven...ster_Munitions

It is a bit hypocritical to ban a weapon, much like chemical weapons, and then turn around and use them as soon as it is politically convenient.

Now if Ukraine was in desperate straits and was about to be overrun, there might be a case for their use, but that is not the case. The weapons are being supplied to help speed up the "counter-offensive".

Even then, it is not clear how much use DPICM will be, the ammo being supplied, apparently 155mm M864 shells are an area denial weapon, Useful if you want to hit counter-attacking Russian forces, but less useful in an offensive since when UKR forces enter the area where they were used, they risk having multiple vehicle/personnel casualties.

Now the Pentagon is claiming a 2% dud rate on ammo they will supply, but that seems doubtful, production of M864 shells apparently ended 20 years ago, so these shells have probably been in storage 20-30 years, so the real dud rate could be a lot higher.

[Skybird]

The US has not signed the anti clusterbomb treaty. Nor have Russia, China, and half of the globe's states as well. No hypocrisy in the American acting then. (The US has, however, just completed the destruction of its known chemical weapon arsenal).

The issue gained momentum because conventional 155mm artillery rounds cannot be produced fast enough, not in Europe and not in the US, there is a shortage and the Ukraine is running low on these. The cluster ammunition however is available in large quantities. It works well for attacking not mnonly moving forces, but also fixed emplacements.

Militarily there use makes an awesome lot of sense. Like the use of mines as well - Russia currently proves that. Mines make - from a military standpoint - an awesome lot of sense.

It is the ukraine deciding to use these weapons on their own ground, in a fight for mere survival. Russia has clearly said it wants the Ukraine to stop to exist as a state and as an ethnic group and culture, which proves the intention for announced genocide. I can only caution any Westerner or other people to lecture Ukraine on what tools it may use to defend itself. It struggles for survival and for territorial integrity. One can easily end up as some arrogant bastard throwing some pepperspray to a victim of rape and murder and say "Here, this is it, but more you are not getting to try to defend your life! Stay classy!"

The US said it is to deliver a type of round that is modern and has a lower dud rate than rounds produced 20 years ago. There will be duds. But again: it is the victim of this aggression that decides whether and how to use this weapon. And they asked for it since long time. I think their military is competent enough to know why it wants it. And we are certainly not in the position to lecture them on the moral implications. The Ukrainias fight for their mere existence, for their right to be and to exist. If all agriculture and industry in the Ukraine gets destroyed, you can seal their fate even if not killing them to the last man standing and occupying every square inch of their territory.

They asked for this weapon, so give them these. All gloves off, I say. I would even give them back equivalents to the nuclear arsenal they have given up in the early nineties for guarantees that we later betrayed. It would make the Russians think twice and three times before trying some nuclear stunt if they would need to expect Ukrainian retaliation of equal means.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The US has not signed the anti clusterbomb treaty. Nor have Russia, China, and half of the globe's states as well. No hypocrisy in the American acting then. (The US has, however, just completed the destruction of its known chemical weapon arsenal).

Well that is the weasily justification which is being used, but NATO is supposed to be an alliance where decisions are taken collectively. Notice how all the Western European politicians are being very silent on the issue.

Now you are not going to see any pushback on this decision in the Western media in Europe and North America where everyone is "Rah, Rah, Ukraine, Go!" as if it is a football match.

Where the shoe drops is in the ROW: Asia, Middle East, Africa, Latin America where this is seen as just one more example that there is one set of rules for the West and another for the rest and that this war is just a proxy war between the USA and Russia that they want no part of.

[Exocet25fr]

Russia's ambassador to Washington, Anatoly Antonov, said on Friday:

"The US decision to include cluster munitions in its latest batch of military aid to Kiev is an admission of failure and a desperate attempt to stave off defeat"

[Skybird]

Thats not weasely, thats legal fact. Treaty's law. NATO has no claim over a single member nation's political acting. Not even if activating article 5! The US has not signed that cluster ammo treaty, and thats it. It must not obey it, therefore. Collective decision making, you say? Regarding actions and policies authorized by NATO, yes. And even then the case you try to make is not as solid and clear as you maybe wish it would be.

The Ukraine as the victim has any right to defend itself in the way it sees fit. There is nothing to debate. It wants clusters, sees value in using them on its territory, and so be it.

However. Peace, bro.

[mapuc]

We should not forget the Ukrainians are going to use these cluster bombs at the front not against civilians as the Russian does.

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Well that is the weasily justification which is being used, but NATO is supposed to be an alliance where decisions are taken collectively. Notice how all the Western European politicians are being very silent on the issue.

Now you are not going to see any pushback on this decision in the Western media in Europe and North America where everyone is "Rah, Rah, Ukraine, Go!" as if it is a football match.

Where the shoe drops is in the ROW: Asia, Middle East, Africa, Latin America where this is seen as just one more example that there is one set of rules for the West and another for the rest and that this war is just a proxy war between the USA and Russia that they want no part of.

You may see it that way, but NATO is is really nothing more than a mutual defensive agreement between member states when threatened by non-member states. Neither Ukraine or Russia are member states.

There are really only 2 "nevers" when fighting a war, Never deliberately target civilians and never use NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) munitions.
Doing so makes you an instant pariah in the eyes of the world.

[Jimbuna]

[mapuc]

In Sweden there are ordinary Swedes who wants to burn the Quran not because they dislike Islam, no it's for preventing Sweden become NATO member. So far 3 Swedish citizens has asked the police.

Markus

[Platapus]

[Jimbuna]

[Exocet25fr]

Ukrainians haven't ammo anymore, and Russians have Two shovels only !?, and No artillery!?. Ukrainians don't need cluster bombs in this case....? The war is over!. It's time for negociate, NO ?

The Ukrainians are going to use these cluster bombs at the front not against civilians but on their OWN territory....?

TOUT CELA VA MAL FINIR...........BoumBoumBadaBoum.......!

[Jimbuna]