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02-18-13, 09:03 PM | #46 | |
Lucky Jack
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Plus it could take beating and still fly back to base.
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02-18-13, 09:19 PM | #47 | |
Fleet Admiral
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I need to look it up.
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02-18-13, 09:37 PM | #48 |
Lucky Jack
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If I had to compare the Frightening to any US jet, I'd compare it to the F-104. They both flew in '54 and rolled out within a year of each other. Both were interceptors through and through, both had short legs and both were essentially a rocket with wings.
While the Lightning might have been able to out-pace the F-104 in most races, and keep up with it on the deck, the F-104 wins out because it can actually shoot at the enemy with its Sidewinders...whereas our Firestreaks and Red Tops just sort of go 'over there' and probably would wind up in a tree somewhere in East Germany. Of course, this all took place in the late 1940s, early 1950s where the British government really wasn't quite sure whether it actually wanted an airforce or not... Aaah, the things we could have done, the Miles M52, TSR-2, Black Prince... We don't need an enemy, us Brits, we defeat ourselves! |
02-18-13, 10:52 PM | #49 | |
Navy Seal
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The Navy started Topgun in 1969 or 70 so they improved their ratio in 1972 the Air Force did not start an air combat specific program until after Vietnam was over so their ratio improved but much more marginally than the Navy did during Linebacker I & II i guess they thought that the Navy was wasting its time they got proven other wise. The first Red Flag took place in 1975 a few months after the fall of Saigon.However unlike Topgun every single Air Force combat pilot will go through several Red Flags during their career while only a percentage of Navy pilots get to go to Topgun the idea being that they teach their squadron mates that have not been what they learned.Red Flag also covers the full spectrum of air combat not just dog fighting and everyone is involved from the pilot to the maintenance crews to the intel officers.I went though a Red Flag when I was assigned to an A-10 squadron the operations tempo was more intense than ones I experienced in support of actual combat operations to give you an idea just how intense a Red Flag is I was very happy not to be an A-10 driver because they looked much more strained than I did.The missions in the training are designed to be impossible you have to beat the absolute best pilots in the USAF no holds bared.Of course Navy and Marine and NATO units come to Red Flags all the time Usually the side benefit of going to Red Flag is they held at Nellis AFB in Las Vegas some are held up in Alaska though. The USAF ratio was an embarrassing 2.2:1 from 1965 to 1972 while the Navy ratio was from 1965 to 1969(start and end of Rolling Thunder) 2.5:3 and in 1972 during Linebacker I & II it went up to 12.5:1 a notable improvement considering that the school had only been around for 3 years. Last edited by Stealhead; 02-18-13 at 11:08 PM. |
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02-19-13, 12:08 AM | #50 |
Eternal Patrol
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Yep. I never said it wasn't fast. The Phantom was one of only two aircraft at the time that was capable of sustained supersonic flight at sea level. The other was the F-105.
The records were all set with an empty airframe, no self-sealing tanks, no armor, no back-seater and enough fuel to make the attempt. Combat ready the plane was a pig. Let's look at some real-world numbers: Thrust/Weight ratios: F-4: 0.86 at loaded weight, 0.58 at Max Take-Off Weight MiG 21: 0.80 at gross weight. Phantom is better, but we knew that. Lightning: 0.78. F-104: 0.76 loaded, 0.54 MTOW F-15: 1.12 F-16: 1.092 So you're right. For its time the Phantom was pretty impressive in speed, and yes, acceleration, but not when loaded. It wasn't a good turner, but neither was the MiG-21. The MiG-17, on the other hand, was a dogfighter, but missiles don't dogfight. Actual all-up rate of climb: F-104: 48,000 ft/min MiG-21: 44,280 ft/min F-4: 41,300 ft/min F-16: 50,000 ft/min While the F-104 looks good on paper, it has to be remembered that its loaded weight is not much different from its empty weight, not exactly carrying a lot of fuel or ordinance. A loaded Phantom is, as I said, mediocre.
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02-19-13, 12:10 AM | #51 |
Lucky Jack
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I believe we used to call it the 'Brick'.
Versatile aircraft though, can't knock it. |
02-19-13, 12:15 AM | #52 |
Eternal Patrol
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You have to remember that the Air Force went into the 1960s with the same mindset they had from the '50s. The mission they trained for was stopping Soviet bombers from attacking the United States. Fast, unmaneuverable airplanes armed with missiles were needed to stop those high-altitude bombers, and fighter combat was considered to be a thing of the past. They went into Vietnam thinking that they would be able to stand off and shoot missiles. They didn't envision actual dogfights, which have a habit of slowing down to 500 knots or so, and require turning.
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02-19-13, 01:32 AM | #53 | |
Lucky Jack
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In a war against the Soviet Union they may have had a point, but they forgot the rest of the world. EDIT: To put a bit more meat on the bones of my comment, the 1957 Defence White Paper is what I refer to, although it doesn't mention the removal of the RAF (I think such things would have caused an uproar) it shows the decision to scale back interceptors in favour of SAM launchers, the Frightening only scraped through because it was too far advanced in planning to be worth stopping. |
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02-19-13, 05:35 AM | #54 | |
Chief of the Boat
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She also took part in the Red Flag exercises and as far as I am aware always 'won' because of how low an altitude she could attack from meaning she never showed up on the US radar. Best not dwell on this though, she was a bomber not a fighter or an interceptor.
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02-19-13, 09:31 AM | #55 | ||
Eternal Patrol
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Plane.......... Official Nickname.......... Unofficial Nickname P-47........... Thunderbolt................ Jug (this is claimed in some sources to be short for "Juggernaut", but in fact refers to the shape of the plane if stood on its nose). This also led to the other nickname - "Seven-Ton Milk Bottle" F-84........... Thunderjet.................. Hawg F-105......... Thunderchief................ Thud, Thunderthud, Lead Sled A-10........... Thunderbolt II.............. Warthog
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02-19-13, 10:27 AM | #56 | |
Navy Seal
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You got the A-10 somewhat wrong A-10 drivers call it simply "Hog" trust me I used to work with these guys everyday."Warthog" was the name that pilots and maintenance crews originally named it back in the late 70's but developed into simply "Hog" a long time before I was ever working around them.I used to love talking the F-16 and F-15 pilots they would always say how badly that wanted to fly the Hog. I heard that RAF pilots where the ones to call the P-47 Jug after a milk jug due to its massive size and lack of appeal that the Spitfire had. One of the more interesting nicknames goes to the B-1B officially the "Lancer" it is known a simply as "Bone". The F-16 is another example of an unpopular official nick name Lockheed went with "Fighting Falcon"(after the Air Force Academy football team "Fighting Falcons") while many even in the company and also its test pilots wanted to call it "Viper" because its shape is like that of a vipers head when it strikes.F-16 pilots have called it the "Viper" ever since I hear that they do mean things to you if call it Fighting Falcon. |
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02-19-13, 11:05 AM | #57 | |
Kaiser Bill's batman
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And if we're actually keeping scores then to be more accurate it would be Lightning 0 : Fire Lots. A recommended read - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lightning-Bo.../dp/190811715X
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02-19-13, 01:24 PM | #58 | |||
Eternal Patrol
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02-19-13, 02:37 PM | #59 |
Lucky Jack
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I've heard Lawn Dart for the F-16s too.
Also, Lead Sled for the F-84, and Tent Peg/ground nail for the F-104. The old joke with the F-84 was that at the end of the nose there was a little sensor that sniffed out the dirt at the end of the runway and then turned the controls on so the pilot could take off. |
02-19-13, 03:35 PM | #60 | |
Eternal Patrol
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I had not heard that one! Quote:
As the second pilot was ordered to stand down while they tried to figure out what the problem was, somebody noticed that the civilians had all disappeared.
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