Here we go again-Ukraine once again - Page 293

mapuc · 06-04-22, 12:58 PM

I fully understand their anger.

Macron have said that Ukraine should not humiliate Russia

Quote:

Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".

But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".

Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61691816

Markus

Dargo · 06-04-22, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

The only thing related to our supply and its logistic is that Russia has started to bomb important points in West Ukraine.

(I call it points because my famous wall fell down and I forgot what things are called)

Markus

Russia does that already for months Ukraine railroad system is dense, so they can reroute supply trains quick.

Dargo · 06-04-22, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I fully understand their anger.

Macron have said that Ukraine should not humiliate Russia

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61691816

Markus

Dmytro Kuleba is right, Putin is a big boi that can humiliate himself as a boss. I am convinced the longer Macron and Scholz speak about not humiliating Putin, the less likely they will be accepted as a mediator by those threatened by Putin

Dargo · 06-04-22, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I fully understand their anger.

Macron have said that Ukraine should not humiliate Russia

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61691816

Markus

Phone calls from World leaders to Putin only strengthen his confidence that he will once again be able to evade consequences through corruption, lies and waiting it out! World leaders need to stop conversing with Putin and make it clear that he's a war criminal! It looks more, do not humiliate Russia. We want to buy un-humiliated gas and oil.

Skybird · 06-04-22, 01:37 PM

NZZ on the grains situation:

Russia is exacerbating the global food shortage with its warships in the Black Sea. The world does not have to put up with this. It has every right to enforce free navigation to get Ukrainian grain to markets.

Increasing droughts worldwide, crop failures and then the Ukraine war: world market prices for wheat have roughly doubled in the last twelve months. We Europeans notice this, if at all, through slightly higher bread prices at the bakery and a few francs or euros more spent when shopping at the supermarket. For millions of people living just on the poverty line in the Middle East, Africa and Southeast Asia, it is a matter of existence. In early May, World Food Program Director David Beasley issued a stark warning that 44 million people worldwide were facing an imminent hunger crisis because of huge grain supplies blocked in Ukrainian ports.

The situation is serious. A strong Russian naval force has been lurking off the coast since the attack on Ukraine, threatening to sink any ship. The shipping lanes have been contaminated by mines from both warring parties. Since then, the "breadbasket of the world" has been cut off from its markets.

In 2019, Ukraine had contributed a significant share to feeding the world's population, with 9 percent of global wheat exports, 10 percent for barley, 16 percent for corn and 42 percent for sunflower seeds. Over 90 percent of the booming grain exports were exported by cargo ships across the Black Sea. No freighter has sailed since the outbreak of war. More than 20 million tons of grain from the 2021 harvest are urgently awaiting removal in silos to make way for the new summer harvest. But nothing is going.

Two weeks ago, President Putin offered to open the Black Sea to grain ships if the West would lift its economic sanctions against Russia. This blackmail attempt is unacceptable. At the same time, talks are underway between Moscow, Ankara, Kiev and the UN on a controlled opening of access to the last major Ukrainian-controlled port, Odessa. According to Ankara, Turkey would take a central role in securing and monitoring the shipping routes. Talks are to continue in Turkey next week. Whether an agreement will be reached is open, as important security interests of both warring parties are at stake.

One thing is certain: Russia is violating maritime law with its blockade. In principle, every nation is free to sail through international waters. During a visit to London ten days ago, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis therefore suggested that a coalition of states should offer convoys of cargo ships escort through the Black Sea to enable the transport of Ukrainian grain.

Such an operation would not be historically unique. In 1986 to 1987, the U.S. had provided escort protection for Kuwaiti oil tankers through the Persian Gulf to secure supplies to world markets against attacks by Iraq and Iran, two littoral states at war. In 2008, the EU launched a mission to safely escort cargo ships through pirate-threatened waters off the coast of Somalia.

In the Black Sea, however, the aggressor is a nuclear power. Therefore, special caution would be required in such a mission. But unlike the establishment of a no-fly zone over Ukraine, which Kiev demanded at the start of the war and which the U.S. rightly rejected, military conflicts between NATO states and Russia would be easier to avoid. Enforcing free passage through international waters would not require firing a shot. Rather, Russia would have to attack other nations' ships to prevent them from sailing.

That Moscow, which has already reached the limits of its military capability in Ukraine, would start a war against other states in this way is highly unlikely. This is all the more true since the grain convoys could be declared a humanitarian mission and formed by a broad coalition of states.

As yet, governments in Washington, London or Paris are reacting cautiously to the proposals. U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley told reporters in London Tuesday that should a political decision be made to undertake such a mission, it would be a high-risk military action requiring significant effort. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg made similar comments.

These warnings are appropriate. The shipping routes to Odessa would have to be secured by minesweepers. The presence of dozens of Russian warships in the Black Sea, as well as Russian aircraft and missiles, would be a constant threat. The 1936 Montreux Convention, which prohibits the passage of warships through the Bosporus in wartime, also poses a problem. There are exceptions, but Turkey would have to cooperate. In any case, it would be a race against time. Preparations are likely to take months, too late for the summer harvest.
A rapid opening of the shipping routes is needed

But what is the alternative? Before the outbreak of war, Ukraine produced over 80 million tons of grain per year. It was able to export up to 6 million tons per month through its seaports. It is true that since the Russian blockade, considerable efforts have been made to promote outbound transport via rail, road and the Danube. But capacities are not geared to this. In April, thanks to major efforts by the EU and others, exports were at least increased to around 1 million tons. A maximum of up to 2 million should be possible. This is not enough.

If the sea blockade in the Black Sea is not broken, many of the world's poorest people will wait in vain for Ukrainian grain. And not only this summer, but also in autumn, winter, next year.

A quick end to the Russian "grain war" is needed. If the amicable opening of the shipping routes to Odessa negotiated by the UN and Turkey with Moscow and Kiev takes place, it would be ideal. At the same time, however, the governments of the major maritime nations should seriously consider the option of unilaterally enforced humanitarian escort in the Black Sea. This would allow them to put pressure on Moscow and prepare for such a difficult mission. Time is of the essence.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Dargo · 06-04-22, 01:42 PM

Pilots of Russian attack helicopter are scared of getting hit by #Ukraine anti-aircraft defenses, so don't get close to targets. Russian Ministry of Defense videos show before firing, nose of heli is raised - giving increased rocket range, but reduced accuracy... https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share

Dargo · 06-04-22, 02:11 PM

It is senseless to shelter Putin from the sense that he is losing. He will figure that out for himself, and he will act to protect himself. Russians are not cornered. The Russian army is not cornered. It is an invading force. When defeated, units just retreat across the border to Russia. Putin rules in virtual reality, where there is always an escape route. He cannot be cornered in Ukraine, because Ukraine is a real place. It is hard for people in other societies to grasp that Putin is a dictator who controls his country's media. He rules by changing the subject. Putin changes the subject all the time. The last time Russia invaded Ukraine, its media changed the subject to Syria from one day to the next, and Russians went along.

When Russia invaded Ukraine this February, the media quickly adjusted from saying that invasion was impossible to saying it was inevitable. Russians went along. If defeated in reality, Putin will just declare victory on television, and Russians will believe him, or pretend to. He does not need our help for that. It is senseless to create an "off-ramp" in the real world, when all Putin needs is one in a virtual world he completely controls. Talking of "off-ramps" just gives Russian leaders something to laugh about in what are otherwise difficult times.

To be sure, Putin might error and wait too long to declare victory in the virtual world. In that case, he loses power. We cannot save him from such a misjudgment, and it is misguided to try. Putin's power over media will be complete until the moment when it ceases. There is no interval where our actions in the real world will make a difference. Either our off-ramps are unnecessary or they are irrelevant. It is grotesque to ask the Ukrainians to make decisions about the war for the comfort of Russian television producers, who don't take direction from the real world anyway. Misunderstanding Russia through clichés of "cornering" and "off-ramps" will make the war last longer, by distracting from the simple necessity of Russian defeat.

Ukraine is a very different story. Zelensky, unlike Putin, is democratically elected, feels responsible for his people, and governs in a world where others matter. Ukraine has a press that the government does not direct. Zelensky cannot simply change the subject. He has to bring his people along on any major decision. Unlike Putin, Zelensky has to make a case to his people to end this war. He therefore does need help, both to win the war and in telling Ukrainians what comes next. Unlike Russian soldiers, Ukrainians have nowhere else to go. They cannot just go home. The war is fought in their country. They will return to their homes and rebuild.

Ending the war means thinking more about the Ukrainian people and their future, and worrying less about problems that Putin does not in fact have.

https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/s...99453669949440

mapuc · 06-04-22, 02:20 PM

Dargo wrote:
"It is senseless to shelter Putin from the sense that he is losing. He will figure that out for himself"
and
"To be sure, Putin might error and wait too long to declare victory in the virtual world"

I fear this moment when he understand that he has lost the war in Ukraine and I fear that he in his virtual world see himself and Russia as unbeatable/untouchable and use nukes as they were firecrackers.

Markus

Jeff-Groves · 06-04-22, 02:27 PM

Catfish · 06-04-22, 02:34 PM

^

Though i'm not content with the ending ..

Why russian propaganda is smarter than you think

Dargo · 06-04-22, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Russian propaganda is smarter than you think

For Russians yeah not for me or anyone that take what they say in media critical, always think for yourself before believing it.

Dargo · 06-04-22, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Dargo wrote:
"It is senseless to shelter Putin from the sense that he is losing. He will figure that out for himself"
and
"To be sure, Putin might error and wait too long to declare victory in the virtual world"

I fear this moment when he understand that he has lost the war in Ukraine and I fear that he in his virtual world see himself and Russia as unbeatable/untouchable and use nukes as they were firecrackers.

Markus

It would solve the climate crisis in a day if the industrial world is destroyed.

I know that I am first hit live close to Europe main supply hub, so I go with a big bang but do not fear Putin frell him

Catfish · 06-04-22, 03:11 PM

June 3rd they say

Dargo · 06-04-22, 03:14 PM

Vladimir Putin is not going to stop his war in Ukraine, Putin still wants to do four things:

- Destroy Ukraine
- Tear apart NATO
- Humiliate the West
- Rewrite European security

He hasn't succeeded, but he's still trying.

Dargo · 06-04-22, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

June 3rd they say

This is how you win a war stop backup and... meet your fate

06-04-22, 01:37 PM	#4385
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,633 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	NZZ on the grains situation: Russia is exacerbating the global food shortage with its warships in the Black Sea. The world does not have to put up with this. It has every right to enforce free navigation to get Ukrainian grain to markets. Increasing droughts worldwide, crop failures and then the Ukraine war: world market prices for wheat have roughly doubled in the last twelve months. We Europeans notice this, if at all, through slightly higher bread prices at the bakery and a few francs or euros more spent when shopping at the supermarket. For millions of people living just on the poverty line in the Middle East, Africa and Southeast Asia, it is a matter of existence. In early May, World Food Program Director David Beasley issued a stark warning that 44 million people worldwide were facing an imminent hunger crisis because of huge grain supplies blocked in Ukrainian ports. The situation is serious. A strong Russian naval force has been lurking off the coast since the attack on Ukraine, threatening to sink any ship. The shipping lanes have been contaminated by mines from both warring parties. Since then, the "breadbasket of the world" has been cut off from its markets. In 2019, Ukraine had contributed a significant share to feeding the world's population, with 9 percent of global wheat exports, 10 percent for barley, 16 percent for corn and 42 percent for sunflower seeds. Over 90 percent of the booming grain exports were exported by cargo ships across the Black Sea. No freighter has sailed since the outbreak of war. More than 20 million tons of grain from the 2021 harvest are urgently awaiting removal in silos to make way for the new summer harvest. But nothing is going. Two weeks ago, President Putin offered to open the Black Sea to grain ships if the West would lift its economic sanctions against Russia. This blackmail attempt is unacceptable. At the same time, talks are underway between Moscow, Ankara, Kiev and the UN on a controlled opening of access to the last major Ukrainian-controlled port, Odessa. According to Ankara, Turkey would take a central role in securing and monitoring the shipping routes. Talks are to continue in Turkey next week. Whether an agreement will be reached is open, as important security interests of both warring parties are at stake. One thing is certain: Russia is violating maritime law with its blockade. In principle, every nation is free to sail through international waters. During a visit to London ten days ago, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis therefore suggested that a coalition of states should offer convoys of cargo ships escort through the Black Sea to enable the transport of Ukrainian grain. Such an operation would not be historically unique. In 1986 to 1987, the U.S. had provided escort protection for Kuwaiti oil tankers through the Persian Gulf to secure supplies to world markets against attacks by Iraq and Iran, two littoral states at war. In 2008, the EU launched a mission to safely escort cargo ships through pirate-threatened waters off the coast of Somalia. In the Black Sea, however, the aggressor is a nuclear power. Therefore, special caution would be required in such a mission. But unlike the establishment of a no-fly zone over Ukraine, which Kiev demanded at the start of the war and which the U.S. rightly rejected, military conflicts between NATO states and Russia would be easier to avoid. Enforcing free passage through international waters would not require firing a shot. Rather, Russia would have to attack other nations' ships to prevent them from sailing. That Moscow, which has already reached the limits of its military capability in Ukraine, would start a war against other states in this way is highly unlikely. This is all the more true since the grain convoys could be declared a humanitarian mission and formed by a broad coalition of states. As yet, governments in Washington, London or Paris are reacting cautiously to the proposals. U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley told reporters in London Tuesday that should a political decision be made to undertake such a mission, it would be a high-risk military action requiring significant effort. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg made similar comments. These warnings are appropriate. The shipping routes to Odessa would have to be secured by minesweepers. The presence of dozens of Russian warships in the Black Sea, as well as Russian aircraft and missiles, would be a constant threat. The 1936 Montreux Convention, which prohibits the passage of warships through the Bosporus in wartime, also poses a problem. There are exceptions, but Turkey would have to cooperate. In any case, it would be a race against time. Preparations are likely to take months, too late for the summer harvest. A rapid opening of the shipping routes is needed But what is the alternative? Before the outbreak of war, Ukraine produced over 80 million tons of grain per year. It was able to export up to 6 million tons per month through its seaports. It is true that since the Russian blockade, considerable efforts have been made to promote outbound transport via rail, road and the Danube. But capacities are not geared to this. In April, thanks to major efforts by the EU and others, exports were at least increased to around 1 million tons. A maximum of up to 2 million should be possible. This is not enough. If the sea blockade in the Black Sea is not broken, many of the world's poorest people will wait in vain for Ukrainian grain. And not only this summer, but also in autumn, winter, next year. A quick end to the Russian "grain war" is needed. If the amicable opening of the shipping routes to Odessa negotiated by the UN and Turkey with Moscow and Kiev takes place, it would be ideal. At the same time, however, the governments of the major maritime nations should seriously consider the option of unilaterally enforced humanitarian escort in the Black Sea. This would allow them to put pressure on Moscow and prepare for such a difficult mission. Time is of the essence. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-04-22, 02:20 PM	#4388
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,067 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Dargo wrote: "It is senseless to shelter Putin from the sense that he is losing. He will figure that out for himself" and "To be sure, Putin might error and wait too long to declare victory in the virtual world" I fear this moment when he understand that he has lost the war in Ukraine and I fear that he in his virtual world see himself and Russia as unbeatable/untouchable and use nukes as they were firecrackers. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

06-04-22, 02:27 PM	#4389
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,358 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 0	__________________ I don't do Stupid. So don't ask.

06-04-22, 02:34 PM	#4390
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,904 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ Though i'm not content with the ending .. Why russian propaganda is smarter than you think __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 06-04-22 at 02:56 PM.*

06-04-22, 03:11 PM	#4393
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,904 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	June 3rd they say __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.