Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The topic never fails to deliver more comedy.

What better way to spend an evening than coming out of my pile of books concerning the Soviet education of the new man, the systematic indoctrination of the people with all the possible methods you can think of and the cold and calculated progress towards what they called socialism, and then finding out that the modern world...is exactly the same?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Webster

yes, both sides have equally strong held beliefs but the point I was trying to point out is that now, (unlike any other time in history) the system of checks and balances that keeps one party from unilaterally pushing its agenda without restriction has broken down.

the socialist democrats were a lot smarter then the republicans and they won by brainwashing children from a young age to not think for themselves (which defeats the entire foundation of the republicans idea of letting people figure things out for themselves) they also taught them to think that everything that is great about this country is something to be ashamed of and changed and they were very smart to realize as long as they keep the majority of the country dependent on government handouts then they will have everlasting power. I applaud them for that, they played the game very well and won because of it.

the republicans were stupid enough to think that people would think for themselves and would look for and see the truth for what it was but the indoctrinated youth only believes what they are told and never look to find out the truth for themselves because they don't care to make an effort.

the republicans brought all this upon themselves by stupidly thinking they don't have to counter the democrats lies and misrepresentations of the facts.

the dems won and the repubs lost and that's life, we have to live with it.

that's just the back story to why the checks and balances system got broken and now its more of a dictatorship then a republic that we live in.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think you might be looking a tad too deep into it. Certainly it is true that the general public in, not just America but Europe, and even Asia, is a lot more liberal than it used to be. Now I don't think that this is a consequence of the education system, but more likely a consequence of the 1960s which was a backlash against the sort of hawkish conservatism which had, was and occasionally still does, draw nations into costly bloody wars which the people oppose.
That is not to say that there are not still conservative elements within the populaces, particularly when it comes to immigration and the race tensions. In America you have the whole Mexico issue, in Europe there's the transition of migrants from Eastern Europe to Western Europe which has accompanied the fall of the Warsaw Pact and the opening up of the EU. This is not to give any sort of slur against the people of Eastern Europe, however when it comes to stirring up tension, the only other thing that stirs quite as good are Muslims, as I am sure it is also the case in America following 9/11.

Another item which may bring forward this appearance of 'brainwashing' is modern media. It is quite often that I will see that people are more concerned about what is happening on a certain television show than what is happening in North Korea or any other nation. Obviously this is not to say that this is a a hundred percent blanket across every nation, otherwise we would be having a disagreement over America/Britains Got Talent rather than the socio-political state of America. In that respect, I can understand why people will post or forward alarmist 'information' which is primarily spin because it relies on shock treatment to get its message across. The note of concern that I am raising though is the fact that if you shock a person enough times they become accustomed to the shock and no longer react in the manner that you originally intended. I suspect that this may also be part of the reason that some Republican support has declined over the past years, certainly with the candidate before last (McCain) being seen as an alarmist rather than a realist. Romney was careful to avoid falling into that trap but still lost, but only by half as many votes as his predecessor.
Does that mean that the Democrats are buying votes, well if they are then they're not buying enough to create a landslide victory. If they are buying votes with this 'free money' and 'Obamaphones' then obviously the demographic populace of America isn't as stupid as people may think because the Democrats won by a slimmer margin this time around than last time.
Now, when it comes down to the infringement of rights and the various amendments. Where exactly where the protests and howls of indignation when the PATRIOT act was signed? Why is it only now when it comes to guns that people are so up in arms (pardon the pun) when an act was signed twelve years ago which gave the government a carte blanche to poke into its citizens lives on the suspicion of terrorist activity.
THAT was when the ball which so many people are worrying about today started rolling, that was the first step on this path that you...no...we find ourselves walking. When CCTVs appeared on every street corner, when our emails are monitored, when anyone trying to enter America can be detained indefinitely for suspicion that they might be going to commit a terrorist act, that is when it began.
August once made a comment which I think is probably the most level headed comment on the situation made by someone opposed to gun regulation that I have heard so far. He opposed gun regulation not because he thought that the current government would use it tyrannically, but because it set in place the framework for potential future abuses.
I cannot argue against that, because I cannot predict the future, however I think that it has little to do with politics as it has to do with people and desire for control and power. It could quite easily be a Republican president who commences the operations that so many 'Freedom-loving' Americans fear, or it could be a Democrat one. Anyone who tries to argue in favour of one or the other being 'the evil party' is merely snared within the petty web of partisan politics.
Of course government wants more power, it wants more power because it wants to be able to do what it wants to do without anyone getting in the way. It could be argued that the most productive governments are dictatorships, however since they are usually run by mentally unstable leaders, their productiveness is curbed by the fact that it's usually in the wrong direction. Dictatorships can do what they want, at the price they want to, and the people have little choice but to go along with it. Look at China, it has cornered the market in producing goods because it can use its people as menial serfs, pay them pittance and they will be grateful for it. It's too big a nation to be blockaded or knocked down like Cuba or the DPRK, so it can flood the market with mass manufactured tat and reap the rewards. Meanwhile in the west we are concerned more with being paid lots and lots of money for doing less work than a Chinese labourer and if we get a pay cut we raise merry hell about it. Yes, we have a much higher standard of living, but in the global trade market we can only compete in higher technology and inventions which flourish because of our higher standard of living and freedom of expression, and all that nations like China need to do is just steal the idea and mass produce it. It may not be quite as effective as our version but it's ten times cheaper, and the average Joe American or Brit will go for the cheaper option, particularly in the middle of a recession.
But I digress.
If you choose to believe that there is a liberal conspiracy taking place within the American government, or that Obama is looking to make himself President for life or to take away your guns, well...it's your right to believe that, and obviously anything I say is not going to change your mind on it, just it won't change Yubba or Bubblehead or any other person who has this very deep set belief. I'm not here to change minds anyway, I'm here to put across my viewpoint which is different, I am a liberal, but I am centralist, not extreme left or right, and I see the fact that American politics has become a battle between the extreme left and the extreme right to be a very dangerous and worrying thing. That worries me more than any attempt by the US government to enact gun control regulation. When a global superpower can barely agree its own budget, that gives me cause for concern...however, I am not Skybird, I do not think that America is going to self-destruct or sink under its own deficits, because America isn't that kind of nation, it tends to find a crazy approach to something and make it work, and make it work damn well. That's what Americans are, they come together and they make things work...sure, they may argue about it the entire time they're doing it, but they'll do it.

In short, if there's any power play going on here, then it's not political, it's personal.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Where exactly where the protests and howls of indignation when the PATRIOT act was signed? Why is it only now when it comes to guns that people are so up in arms (pardon the pun) when an act was signed twelve years ago which gave the government a carte blanche to poke into its citizens lives on the suspicion of terrorist activity.
THAT was when the ball which so many people are worrying about today started rolling, that was the first step on this path that you...no...we find ourselves walking. When CCTVs appeared on every street corner, when our emails are monitored, when anyone trying to enter America can be detained indefinitely for suspicion that they might be going to commit a terrorist act, that is when it began.

Sad truth of the matter is most American's do not care about anything which does not effect them directly. I cannot claim exemption here. No matter what it is, be it war, legislation, or what have you, most simply do not care unless it has effected them somehow.

The difference with guns from the patriot act:
- the patriot act feels like something so far flung from daily life it's hard to grasp it. Just one more piece of legislation congress does to justify it's paycheck. Political BS as usual, and in the last decade, we've come used to seeing a lot of BS coming out of our capital. War on terror, etc etc.

- gun control hits you directly, like a punch in the gut. Gun ownership is/feels directly tied to your constitutional rights, and there sits the government dictating to you what your rights mean in their eyes. Which is why regardless if one owns a gun or not, they should be concerned. Particurally when looking at the larger picture.

I cannot lie, I did not start looking at the larger issues until gun control came up. It got me looking at things I didn't care to be bothered with before. I sincerely hope the government has "awaken a sleeping giant". It strikes me hypocritical that we as a nation are supposedly this great proponent for standing up for human rights and liberty, when we haven't even stood up for our own. At least, not until now.

[Oberon]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Ducimus, people will only notice something when it affects them directly. Not just Americans too.

Thats the essence of the issue, some people are becoming aware of "new" things that in reality are just normal.
As their awarenesss kicks in they still have this stark black/white view of issues and as such they ingest and regurgutate spin from one extreme or the other and hold it as the ultimate truth when it is in fact only a very partial distorted view of the reality.
Anything which doesn't agree with thier new distorted view they simply attribute to being part of the opposite distorted view instead of looking and thinking about it.
For most people that extremism will fade with time, but some will stick to it no matter what.

[Cybermat47]

You know what? I don't need a gun. Here's why:

Gun: Expensive, might creep some people out. Costs money to maintain.

Dog: Expensive, people love animals, costs less money to maintain.

One time my Uncle found two people stealing his property. He just let his dog loose on them. Apparently, one of them still can't walk properly.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

You know what? I don't need a gun. Here's why:

Gun: Expensive, might creep some people out. Costs money to maintain.

Dog: Expensive, people love animals, costs less money to maintain.

One time my Uncle found two people stealing his property. He just let his dog loose on them. Apparently, one of them still can't walk properly.

That's good until someone shoots your dog.

Unfortunately once the lid is off the bottle, you're not putting the contents back in it. The guns are available in America, a good deal of people have them and can get them, even if you ban them, you will have at least 50-75% of people who don't turn their guns in, and if one of them is a criminal then what are you going to do?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

You know what? I don't need a gun. Here's why:

Gun: Expensive, might creep some people out. Costs money to maintain.

You can buy a pump action shotgun for 250-300 dollars. A box of 25 birdshot will run you 8 bucks. A box of 5 buckshot will run you about.... 5 bucks. (pun not intended). So you buy yourself about 15 dollars worth of buckshot for home defense, and you'll probably (EDIT: Never hopefully) need to use it. No maintenance involved unless you just want to blow holes in paper or milk jugs.

Dog: Expensive, people love animals, costs less money to maintain.

I have it on good authority that Dogs are more expensive then you think. My wife has her DVM and she works in a pet hospital. She wears a white lab coat, and her first name is "Doctor". And i can tell you from all the stories I hear every night when she gets home from work, just how much vet care costs. Apparently people have this misguided notion that a 300 dollar visit, should cost about 20 bucks.

EDIT: And nevermind costs of food. You'll be feeding a Dog a lot more then you'll be feeding a firearm, unless you get into shooting as a hobby or sport. Then the costs go the other way around.

One time my Uncle found two people stealing his property. He just let his dog loose on them. Apparently, one of them still can't walk properly.

(1Hr and 30 mins)

On our property, we have this guy aside from any firearms. He's not exactly an attack dog, but he sure makes a good watch dog.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Oberon

That's good until someone shoots your dog.

Then there's that.

[Cybermat47]

Oberon and Ducimus, you make very good points. And nice dog, Ducimus.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Dog: Expensive, people love animals, costs less money to maintain.

It costs more to feed a dog for a year than it does to buy a gun. The other expenses have been mentioned.
http://dogs.about.com/od/becomingado...costofdogs.htm

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Oberon and Ducimus, you make very good points. And nice dog, Ducimus.

Thanks. he's a regular "smarty pants" too. Also, has a lot of energy. I guess that's what happens when a Aussie shepard male jumps the fence to get at a Border collie female on her first heat cycle. We end up with a designer breed by accident, and two herding dogs for the price of one. A "Borderaussie" some would call him. He's smart as a whip, runs like the wind, and has quite the vertical takeoff. I think it's a shame he's fixed, he would have sired some good pups. He has no genetic defects, no hip dysplasia, etc. Really healthy dog.

[Tchocky]

Thought you were talking about Oberon for a minute there

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

has quite the vertical takeoff.

Vertical take off, you say? Here's a story for you. I've got two dogs, both of them female. One of htm was hit by a car and left by the road in a plastic bag, but was saved. Sadly, she doesn't realise that when we throw the ball to her, she's supposed to return it. One time, my Dad was trying to get a ball with a strap on it (don't ask me why) from her, but she just held on, and Dad gave her a helicopter ride.

And my other dog's hyper, but she still managed to become overweight at one point.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Thought you were talking about Oberon for a minute there

Me? I run like a 20 year old St Bernard.

[Platapus]

When I am conducting interviews for puppy/dog adoptions, I tell them to budget between $1,500 - $2,000 per year for all the expenses of owning and properly taking care of a dog. They can be quite expensive.

Worth it, but potentially expensive.

Dogs "can" be great security, but to attempt to compare a dog against a weapon is not logical.

In some conditions a dog may be better
In other conditions a gun may be better

Perhaps the optimum solution is to have a dog AND a gun.