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01-23-22, 11:57 AM | #286 | |
Fleet Admiral
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Do they want it all at once or is it enough to get some of the demands ? Demands like Ukraine and Georgia will never join NATO or NATO leave Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Estonia... It's not going to happen-that NATO leave these countries to them self. Only thing Russia can get is a promise that Ukraine and Georgia will not become a NATO member. When it comes to Finland and Sweden I don't know. Markus
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01-23-22, 12:13 PM | #287 |
Soaring
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I think they are going after something more substantial than just any NATO declaration that I would rule out to ever be given anyway. They want to boost their stand and influenc ein the Ukraine. By proxy forces gianign influence, by a puppet regime installed as the BBC claimed they plan to do, or gaining further ground. They are not dumb, they knew from day one on that their demand that NATO should pull out of Eastern Europe and should declare formal ends to any future NATO expansion to the east, would not be accepted. If NATO would do that, it could quit and dismantle itself immediately, becasue it then would only be mentioned as a joke anymore.
Could also be that they want the Ukraine to be divided.
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01-23-22, 01:37 PM | #288 | |
Chief of the Boat
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Quote:
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01-23-22, 02:18 PM | #289 |
Fleet Admiral
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It makes me sad-Knowing Skybird may very well be correct what he wrote and there will come a war. Due to the demands Russia has towards NATO-Demands NATO can't or will fulfil.
A bad feeling I have - An upcoming exercise in Belarus and a huge naval exercise with 140 warship these are to be held in the beginning of the next month Feb. Markus
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01-23-22, 07:23 PM | #290 | |
Soaring
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Quote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60106416
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01-23-22, 09:32 PM | #291 |
ET2/SS
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I think there are two ways we need to look at this:
Tactical- What can be done now to protect Ukraine? Strategic- Who are the the next countries on the list? |
01-23-22, 10:01 PM | #292 |
CINC Pacific Fleet
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Conspiracy theory:
China and Russia are now allies so I suppose Russia will take Ukraine and simultaneously China will take Taiwan!!
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01-24-22, 03:24 AM | #293 |
Dipped Squirrel Operative
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Basically Putin wants Russia to be respected, he obviously misses this in seeing NATO grow ever nearer to Russia's borders (see baltic states, Poland etc.) despite the pledges of western states made to the (then) CCCP.
The USA argues that this eastern shift of NATO is not violating the pledge since the CCCP does not exist anymore. They also insist of every country having the freedom and right to decide to join any military treaty, anytime. The first is a lawyer's argument which is somehow correct theoretically even if it feels definitely morally wrong; the second has more weight. Ok Russia tries to influence Ukraine politics, but so does the US. Anyway, the guarantee or assurance Putin wants is that there is no additional country at Russia's borders joining NATO, read: Ukraine. Let's be honest, Ukraine is neither financially ready or fit enough to join the EU, nor "ripe" to join NATO. It is corrupt even without Russia's or the US's external influence and has to get a grip on its own situation first. Interference from abroad will not help them as a nation. Would it have been so impossible for 'the west' to agree to this not joining the NATO, at least for the next decade? Especially in this (for the west) weak situation? Russia could be a valuable partner against China, just in case..
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01-24-22, 05:16 AM | #294 |
ET2/SS
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It isn't up to "the west" or the EU when it comes to which nations can join NATO. NATO is pro "democracy" in that its up to the population of a country to request that the country joins NATO (via the voting booth and popular sentiment).
If the people want it, it is then up to the government to get its crap in order before it applies for membership (again, via the voting booth and popular sentiment). NATO doesn't want to expand, NATO wants to keep the peace. Recall why NATO was founded (the destruction from WWI and WWII) in the first place. |
01-24-22, 06:23 AM | #295 | |||
Dipped Squirrel Operative
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And when Ukraine requests a NATO membership who decides if they can join? Quote:
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After WW2 soviet Russia proposed a unified neutral Germany as a precondition to remove its troops and end the occupation, but as we know the US were against it - whence East and West Germany until 1989. Not much here forget this.
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01-24-22, 06:26 AM | #296 |
Soaring
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A nation can ask for club membership, this right it has, naturally. But it has no right to expect that the answer necessarily must be what it wants to hear: "Yes". The club has also a right: the right to say "No".
Same is true for EU membership, btw. Other nations (European nations , not Northafrican or Middle East nations, these days one must reiterate this since some EU theoreticists seriously consider these options!) can ask for membership, but they have no claim for that, nor for that even just a formal process gets started. And I think especially the EU and last but not least the Eurozone has already bitten off far more than it can ever chew. That the EU wants to link EU membership with ECB membership does not make it any better.
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01-24-22, 06:30 AM | #297 |
Soaring
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According to the NYT, the US considers to send several thousand troops to Eastern Europe. Meanwhile the UK also has started to reduce its embassy staff in the Ukraine and to have remaining staff's families being moved out.
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01-24-22, 09:19 AM | #298 |
ET2/SS
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Catfish; The original idea was to avoid another massive land war in Europe.
The CCCP was "expanding its borders" at the time. |
01-24-22, 09:38 AM | #299 |
Fleet Admiral
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Some speculations
Will Russia invade Ukraine ? If so when will this happen ? Will Russia invade the entire country or only the Eastern part of the country ? I fear Putin has decided to invade Ukraine and it will happen after 10th of Feb-Russia and Belarus has planned an exercise near the Ukrainian border, which could indicate that Russia and Belarus will attack from two side. Furthermore the Russian Navy has a planned exercise in Feb. This could mean they also going to invade from seaside. But what do I know-Not much. Markus
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01-24-22, 10:11 AM | #300 | |
Fleet Admiral
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Here is a good site that describes how a country can become a member of NATO
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm Quote:
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