B-29 'Enola Gay' - Page 2

Stealhead · 09-10-14, 07:24 PM

You need to read a little more about Curtis Lemay was by no means mad. Keep in mind that until the Trinity test there was no certainty that the bombs would even work. Even after the test due to the complex design there was no certainty that the bombs would work as designed.

There was no clear indication that the Japanese had any desire to surrender even as late as August 1945. It is a certainty that a land invasion would be a blood bath on a massive scale and likely would have pushed the war into 1946 perhaps 1947 by 45 much of the population in the US was getting war weary bond drives where progressively generating less support.

The fact is the atomic bombs really did shorten the war and in fact did save many more lives than they took. It is war. War is a nasty ugly thing no matter how you white wash it or try to say if x had been done instead of y that would have been better" I strongly disagree at the end of the day if 100,000 people die what different does it make if they died from bullets, rusty knives or nuclear weapons they still died. I just grow tired of the judgment that everyone likes to make on the bombings it happened and yeah it was bad for the people living in those cities but they recovered both cities still stand today Japan is a 1st world country with a democratic government so in the end the world did not stop. Condemning actions of WWII is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Dread Knot · 09-10-14, 08:17 PM

Even with the atomic bombings, the invasion of Manchuria, and the complete collapse of Japanese industry and agriculture, the margin by which a worse outcome to the Pacific War was avoided was razor-thin.

1. By mid-1945, intense bombing of more than sixty cities, including the firebombings. Naval blockade and bombardment.
Result: No surrender.

2. The Potsdam Ultimatum. Result: No surrender. It was rejected on July, 28th 1945 by the Japanese prime minister, Kantaro Suzuki. Emperor Hirohito made no attempt to influence his government on this matter.

3. 6 August 1945, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima
Result: No surrender.

4. 9 August 1945, the Soviet declaration of war on Japan.
Result: No surrender. In fact, martial law was imposed to prevent anyone from entering into surrender discussions.

5. 9 August 1945, the atomic bombing of Nagasaki.
Result: No surrender.

6. Finally in a cabinet meeting on August 13th the emperor in an unprecedented move had to step in to force Japanese government's hand; the Japanese cabinet were evenly split on the surrender decision.

Even then there is opposition and an attempted coup. Overseas garrisons initially refused orders to lay down their arms. Both General Terauchi of the Southern Army and General Okumura of the Chinese Expeditionary Army considered rejecting the order. When asked if the war would be continued if the kokutai [the Emperor's sovereignty] could not be preserved, Hirohito's reply was "of course".

So, as bad as it was, worse was constantly lurking on the sidelines.

Aktungbby · 09-10-14, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You need to read a little more about Curtis Lemay was by no means mad

Somebody liked HIM: as in a long previous post: On December 7, 1964, the Japanese government conferred on him the First Order of Merit with the Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun.

The order is awarded to those who have made distinguished achievements in the following fields: international relations, promotion of Japanese culture, advancements in their field, development in welfare or preservation of the environment.(a little radiation not withstanding?)I wonder what they gave Rear ADM Purnell who conceived of the two bomb plan and actually 'signed off' on his handiwork! "a second kiss for Hirohito"!

Stealhead · 09-10-14, 11:27 PM

I read a very well written biography on LeMay a few years ago. What I liked most about it was the author had a very neutral view on the man. What many people do not realize about LeMay is that he never once bothered to denounce articles or people that said bad or untrue things about him he just did not care about such things. Which of course the negative effect of this attitude was it of course made many tend to make the articles that said he was a loon and warmonger seem true.

He was given the Japanese medal for helping rebuild the post war Japanese Air Self Defense Force. I have even seen articles on webpages wondering why he received the medal all they need to do is do a little research.

Aktungbby · 09-10-14, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I read a very well written biography on LeMay a few years ago. What I liked most about it was the author had a very neutral view on the man. What many people do not realize about LeMay is that he never once bothered to denounce articles or people that said bad or untrue things about him he just did not care about such things. Which of course the negative effect of this attitude was it of course made many tend to make the articles that said he was a loon and warmonger seem true.

He was given the Japanese medal for helping rebuild the post war Japanese Air Self Defense Force. I have even seen articles on webpages wondering why he received the medal all they need to do is do a little research.

I know I read those but it's still ironic!

Stealhead · 09-11-14, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

I know I read those but it's still ironic!

I would assume not in Japanese culture otherwise they would not have given him one. We are talking about a country that has Shinto shrines that honor Japanese WWII war criminals to which Japanese who protest receive threats.

We are talking about the same country that has vending machines which sell worn women's underwear where organized crime (yakuza) have business cards and where Hello Kitty was originated need I say more?
Not trying to be too judgmental American culture is pretty freaking strange and contradictory as well but I guess that shows that we all have something in common.

09-11-14, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

The fact is the atomic bombs really did shorten the war and in fact did save many more lives than they took.

Ok - prove it!
That is what I meant. Everyone oh so lightly justifies this terrible act with "it shortened the war". It sure did when we speak time - but lives?
Prove it with solid facts and don't just call it a fact without actual evidence please.

The moon is made of cheese, fact!

Just adding the word fact, doesn't make it right, so please... some hard evidence that those bombs saved more lives than they took and justified civilian mass murder?

[QUOTE=Stealhead;2241828]It is war.[/QUOTE
Perfect, "it is war, so let's fry 250k civilians... alas there is some military industry as well in those cities, it's cool.".

No, sorry.
While civilians are usually the second casualties of any war, it is still a difference to kill ten-thousands of them willingly or accidentally by carpet-bombing the wrong part of a city.

Also, I suspect that, for some people, it is not about lives but the more valuable and supreme American lives.

If Japan would have dropped 2 nuclear warheads on American cities in WW2, many people would have a different opinion on this, I am sure.

Dread Knot · 09-11-14, 08:17 AM

Well there were several solutions. There was awful and there was gawdawful.

Consider:

The USA just calls it quits where it was in August 1945
Japan claims victory, keeps occupied territories and continues atrocities. Perhaps rearms for another war in a few years

The USA blockades Japan indefinitely
With no access to Chinese rice harvest, millions of Japanese civilians starve to death. Atrocities continue in China.

The USA firebombs Japan indefinitely
Millions of Japanese civilians burn to death or die of famine due to inter-island infrastructure collapse. Atrocities continue in China.

The USA invades the Home Islands maybe in conjunction with the Soviet Union.
Millions of Japanese die defending the homeland along with maybe 500,000 US soldiers in a year long campaign. Atrocities continue in China. Eventual Cold War North-South split of Japan between the USA and Soviet Union. Insurgents make garrison life miserable.

Use new superbomb to destroy two cities and also allow the Emperor to save face while agreeing to unconditional surrender, disarmament and abandonment of lands in China and Korea. About 200,000 Japanese die and the war ends almost immediately. And even that was touch and go.

Considering all that I say they were necessary and probably the only good choice out of a bad group. Hindsight from 70 years later also hinders in that people are trying to force the decision-makers into the modern mindset about the bombs. That doesn't work for people living in the chaotic world of 1945.

　

Jimbuna · 09-11-14, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Not saying this thread did that, at all... it just triggered me I guess, forgive my weakness.

I'm pleased you posted that because the intention of the original post was not to glorify or otherwise but simply to show photographs of an importantly historical event which had been classified for many years.

Bilge_Rat · 09-11-14, 01:08 PM

I think we also have to keep things in perspective, more Japanese and German civilians were killed by regular bombs than by the atomic bombs, 100,000 in Tokyo alone.

In 1945, the U.S. leaders also did not view the Atomic Bomb as the potential world killer that we do. Most did not really understand its power and only thought of it as a more powerful bomb, so its use did not trigger the kind of moral discussion that many think in hindsight it should.

Dread Knot · 09-11-14, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

In 1945, the U.S. leaders also did not view the Atomic Bomb as the potential world killer that we do. Most did not really understand its power and only thought of it as a more powerful bomb, so its use did not trigger the kind of moral discussion that many think in hindsight it should.

As reprehensible as it may seem to us now, General Marshall and most other senior Allied commanders saw the atomic bombs as just big fire bombs, basically "Tall Boys" and "Grand Slams" writ large. Radiation was not an understood thing and "fall-out" wasn't even a term that was invented yet. It would be a few years before we even considered the after-effects of an atomic bomb to be long lasting, except among specialists. The Japanese, being the injured party, were much quicker on the uptake.

As it happens, the prompt gamma and neutron radiation from a Hiroshima-sized atom bomb is heavily attenuated by the air; of the order of a factor of ten for every 500 m you are from ground zero. If you are close enough to receive a lethal radiation dose, the heat pulse and the blast wave have already killed you. Thus, to a first approximation, ignoring prompt radiation effects was the proper thing to do. Ignoring, or being unaware of, the effect of the later fallout was a big mistake.

09-11-14, 01:08 PM	#25
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,793 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	I think we also have to keep things in perspective, more Japanese and German civilians were killed by regular bombs than by the atomic bombs, 100,000 in Tokyo alone. In 1945, the U.S. leaders also did not view the Atomic Bomb as the potential world killer that we do. Most did not really understand its power and only thought of it as a more powerful bomb, so its use did not trigger the kind of moral discussion that many think in hindsight it should. __________________

09-10-14, 07:24 PM	#16
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	You need to read a little more about Curtis Lemay was by no means mad. Keep in mind that until the Trinity test there was no certainty that the bombs would even work. Even after the test due to the complex design there was no certainty that the bombs would work as designed. There was no clear indication that the Japanese had any desire to surrender even as late as August 1945. It is a certainty that a land invasion would be a blood bath on a massive scale and likely would have pushed the war into 1946 perhaps 1947 by 45 much of the population in the US was getting war weary bond drives where progressively generating less support. The fact is the atomic bombs really did shorten the war and in fact did save many more lives than they took. It is war. War is a nasty ugly thing no matter how you white wash it or try to say if x had been done instead of y that would have been better" I strongly disagree at the end of the day if 100,000 people die what different does it make if they died from bullets, rusty knives or nuclear weapons they still died. I just grow tired of the judgment that everyone likes to make on the bombings it happened and yeah it was bad for the people living in those cities but they recovered both cities still stand today Japan is a 1st world country with a democratic government so in the end the world did not stop. Condemning actions of WWII is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

09-10-14, 08:17 PM	#17
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawkeye State Highlands Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 84 Uploads: 0	Even with the atomic bombings, the invasion of Manchuria, and the complete collapse of Japanese industry and agriculture, the margin by which a worse outcome to the Pacific War was avoided was razor-thin. 1. By mid-1945, intense bombing of more than sixty cities, including the firebombings. Naval blockade and bombardment. Result: No surrender. 2. The Potsdam Ultimatum. Result: No surrender. It was rejected on July, 28th 1945 by the Japanese prime minister, Kantaro Suzuki. Emperor Hirohito made no attempt to influence his government on this matter. 3. 6 August 1945, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima Result: No surrender. 4. 9 August 1945, the Soviet declaration of war on Japan. Result: No surrender. In fact, martial law was imposed to prevent anyone from entering into surrender discussions. 5. 9 August 1945, the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. Result: No surrender. 6. Finally in a cabinet meeting on August 13th the emperor in an unprecedented move had to step in to force Japanese government's hand; the Japanese cabinet were evenly split on the surrender decision. Even then there is opposition and an attempted coup. Overseas garrisons initially refused orders to lay down their arms. Both General Terauchi of the Southern Army and General Okumura of the Chinese Expeditionary Army considered rejecting the order. When asked if the war would be continued if the kokutai [the Emperor's sovereignty] could not be preserved, Hirohito's reply was "of course". So, as bad as it was, worse was constantly lurking on the sidelines.

09-10-14, 11:27 PM	#19
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I read a very well written biography on LeMay a few years ago. What I liked most about it was the author had a very neutral view on the man. What many people do not realize about LeMay is that he never once bothered to denounce articles or people that said bad or untrue things about him he just did not care about such things. Which of course the negative effect of this attitude was it of course made many tend to make the articles that said he was a loon and warmonger seem true. He was given the Japanese medal for helping rebuild the post war Japanese Air Self Defense Force. I have even seen articles on webpages wondering why he received the medal all they need to do is do a little research.

09-11-14, 08:17 AM	#23
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawkeye State Highlands Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 84 Uploads: 0	Well there were several solutions. There was awful and there was gawdawful. Consider: The USA just calls it quits where it was in August 1945 Japan claims victory, keeps occupied territories and continues atrocities. Perhaps rearms for another war in a few years The USA blockades Japan indefinitely With no access to Chinese rice harvest, millions of Japanese civilians starve to death. Atrocities continue in China. The USA firebombs Japan indefinitely Millions of Japanese civilians burn to death or die of famine due to inter-island infrastructure collapse. Atrocities continue in China. The USA invades the Home Islands maybe in conjunction with the Soviet Union. Millions of Japanese die defending the homeland along with maybe 500,000 US soldiers in a year long campaign. Atrocities continue in China. Eventual Cold War North-South split of Japan between the USA and Soviet Union. Insurgents make garrison life miserable. Use new superbomb to destroy two cities and also allow the Emperor to save face while agreeing to unconditional surrender, disarmament and abandonment of lands in China and Korea. About 200,000 Japanese die and the war ends almost immediately. And even that was touch and go. Considering all that I say they were necessary and probably the only good choice out of a bad group. Hindsight from 70 years later also hinders in that people are trying to force the decision-makers into the modern mindset about the bombs. That doesn't work for people living in the chaotic world of 1945.