level of complexity

[KDN77RUS]

Originally Posted by Superesse

You're right that at least it is realistic when you're submerged. But why would it be a good thing to have unrealistic features (GPS) when surfaced? The thing is that if you have been submerged for a while and then resurface, the game will give you your correct position. In reality you would still have to trust your previous navigation. You cannot just surface to get the answer. This is especially true if you maneuver in panic during an escort attack and loose your navigation. A lot of your previous convoy mapping would be lost because you no longer know your position!

and how did sailors in real life when you have lost the point after a dive ?
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[Fidd]

Originally Posted by Superesse

You're right that at least it is realistic when you're submerged. But why would it be a good thing to have unrealistic features (GPS) when surfaced? The thing is that if you have been submerged for a while and then resurface, the game will give you your correct position. In reality you would still have to trust your previous navigation. You cannot just surface to get the answer. This is especially true if you maneuver in panic during an escort attack and loose your navigation. A lot of your previous convoy mapping would be lost because you no longer know your position!

I think this comes down to a simple issue of dev-time v benefit to the game. "GPS" surfaced position could be done away with, and the necessity of taking noon-day shots with a sextant replacing it, however, "only the tenth-part of a tithe of a half-farthing" of players would know how to use it, and the need for such accuracy is completely redundant given that all we need to do is to remain in visual or hydrophone contact of a convoy, not (as yet) intercept it from position reports hundreds of miles away.

IMHO for now, there are simply dozens of far more worthy tasks for the devs to crack on with...?

[Superesse]

Originally Posted by KDN77RUS

and how did sailors in real life when you have lost the point after a dive ?

They didn't. That's the point. If you fail with your navigation you don't have a backup GPS. They could use a sextant to get a rough idea, but there were no meter-precision navigation in the 40s.

Originally Posted by Fidd

I think this comes down to a simple issue of dev-time v benefit to the game. "GPS" surfaced position could be done away with, and the necessity of taking noon-day shots with a sextant replacing it, however, "only the tenth-part of a tithe of a half-farthing" of players would know how to use it, and the need for such accuracy is completely redundant given that all we need to do is to remain in visual or hydrophone contact of a convoy, not (as yet) intercept it from position reports hundreds of miles away.

IMHO for now, there are simply dozens of far more worthy tasks for the devs to crack on with...?

Why would we need a sextant? The sextant is probably precise enough to tell you which sea zone you're in. You already know that. Thus, the dev effort here is to add a checkbox "Disable GPS". That's it. I guess that can be done in 10 minutes.

[Fidd]

Originally Posted by Superesse

(snip)

Why would we need a sextant? The sextant is probably precise enough to tell you which sea zone you're in. You already know that. Thus, the dev effort here is to add a checkbox "Disable GPS". That's it. I guess that can be done in 10 minutes.

I wasn't suggesting we do have sextants, but the opposite, ie it's a waste of time.

[KDN77RUS]

Originally Posted by Fidd

I wasn't suggesting we do have sextants, but the opposite, ie it's a waste of time.

it depends on the tasks before the player. you can create conditions in which only the sextant will help to find the right direction and coordinates after a long active maneuvering

[Fidd]

I don't think a sextant would help in that regard as the intrinsic error of the instrument is likely much more than any navigational error caused by "manoeuvring" would be, unless such manoeuvring went on for days..

[KDN77RUS]

Originally Posted by Fidd

I don't think a sextant would help in that regard as the intrinsic error of the instrument is likely much more than any navigational error caused by "manoeuvring" would be, unless such manoeuvring went on for days..

the accuracy of the sextant is limited to the determination of latitude and longitude ?

[derstosstrupp]

A competent navigator under good conditions using a sextant can get a fix with 5 to 10 nautical mile accuracy

[KDN77RUS]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

A competent navigator under good conditions using a sextant can get a fix with 5 to 10 nautical mile accuracy

in the ocean it's precision, like a thread in a needle to get

[derstosstrupp]

Originally Posted by KDN77RUS

in the ocean it's precision, like a thread in a needle to get

It’s certainly not precise like GPS of course, but remember that five nautical miles is just under 10 km, well within visual range at sea to find an island or whatever. Celestial navigation is fascinating stuff, and it’s surprising how accurate it is.

We have our people simulating it in our campaign for Wolfpack, outside of the game, but when they go on patrol I give them their celestial data and they plot fixes using real world data.

[Fidd]

The sextant can only calculate latitude' but needs to be used in conjunction with a very accurate chronometer to determine longitude. A sextant without one is as much use a bath-plug on a submarine.

Originally Posted by KDN77RUS

the accuracy of the sextant is limited to the determination of latitude and longitude ?

[derstosstrupp]

Yes indeed! You are then forced to do as the old old timers did and “sail the latitudes”. Sail straight north or south to the latitude of your destination, then east/west till you get there, taking a noon sight for latitude or polaris sight each day.

[KDN77RUS]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

It’s certainly not precise like GPS of course, but remember that five nautical miles is just under 10 km, well within visual range at sea to find an island or whatever. Celestial navigation is fascinating stuff, and it’s surprising how accurate it is.

We have our people simulating it in our campaign for Wolfpack, outside of the game, but when they go on patrol I give them their celestial data and they plot fixes using real world data.

will the Wolfpack sextant work ?

[derstosstrupp]

Interestingly enough there is code currently in the code for a sextant of some sort. Let’s keep our fingers crossed!

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Fidd

The sextant can only calculate latitude' but needs to be used in conjunction with a very accurate chronometer to determine longitude. A sextant without one is as much use a bath-plug on a submarine.

Actually, it measures an angle between objects, and most often used for an angle of a celestial object to the horizion. You don't need to be looking south to the sun to get latitude at noon. With sightings of sun/moon/planets/stars in various directions and accurate time you do a bunch of number-crunching based on assumed positions an then calculate offset corrections (azimuth and distance) from those to construct two or more "T"-shapes on the map, where you would be somewhere on the top-line. The number-crunching being with tables of positions and logarithmic tables for spherical trigonometry. (don't ask further, I am not proficient in it. Check this for an example procedures made with SH4 in mind: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=2991)

This would go way over the heads of 99% of the players. Which already have trouble with the TDC or submerged dead reckoning. So would be left unused by the majority. Asking the devs to implement celestial nav in the game is asking them to waste time where they could be doing other stuff. Asking the devs to disable the update of the uboat icon position is the easiest for them to do. Maybe only leave the starting position as a reference. Then it is the total responsibility of the crew to keep track of their movement in a log as they go away of the reference point. Because, if you enter the game in total overcast then you will be completely lost without any way to fix your position in that session. If you do not have the convoy or other objectives in hydrophone-, or later radio direction finder-range, then you might as well give up.

If the devs find time to implement this fully down the line then I'm all for it.