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09-26-13, 12:57 AM | #16 |
Warfaresims
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Thanks for the confidence!
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09-26-13, 03:44 AM | #17 | |
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It is advanced defensive tactic!...It is not basic evasive maneuvers medium range dump a noise maker and turn 90 degrees to exit the torpedo cone of vision, and force it to reacquire you. Now, if you doubt the physics of a torpedo exploding, creating a shock wave within 200 yards of an incoming torpedo, which shock wave explodes the incoming torpedo, then it is ok. The exploding torpedo is still wired, active and also guided by the sonar system of the sub launcher, as the torpedo alone can not do it. It will get you close, but it is not as accurate as to collide with incoming torpedo. It needs the help of the Sub launcher sonar to place it in the course of the incoming torpedo, and when within xxx yards, kaboum! Jane's won't tell you how to use a weapon, it is not a field manual, but it will tell you the capabilities of a weapon system, and if it can be destroyed at will while still wired. Remember, torpedoes explode anyway when they run out of gas and the wire long gone, to protect the technology. Now if you don't believe it because it defies your perceptions or for any other reasons, it is ok. Moreover, I don't think that anyone in their right mind would deliberately prove your point or sustain my description, by producing a page of a manual explaining how things get done in a combat environment. And I am done talking about that, as right or wrong, accurate or not, what I know does not define me, and I'd rather be experiencing some games/sims/"low-fidelity sim bordering on arcade" (real classy), than talking about them. Your game is good and there is many room available for improvements! BTW, don't take yourself too seriously, Tom Clancy was not abducted for illustrating "Command detonate" in Tom Clancy SSN, and he certainly knows more about Submarines weapon systems than you and I together. Now throw me another one, so you will have the last word |
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09-26-13, 03:56 AM | #18 |
Warfaresims
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Come now, we're both adults. First! and last! posts are for kids & trolls.
I understand what you're saying, and your description sounds plausible. I'm just wondering how come it (not the detonation command, but the practicality of using it to disrupt other torpedoes) has never been mentioned anywhere else. I'll have another round with our sub folks to discuss this. If it's feasible, we can look into implementing this on a future update. Thanks! |
09-26-13, 04:05 AM | #19 | |
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My umbridge with it as a secret, unacknowledged tactical capability is what tactical advantage could the capability actually have. As Sunburn says, passive Sonar and Target Motion Analysis isn't known for its precision accuracy. And if you are close enough to the target that you're prosecuting it with Active Sonar... why not just close the range and allow the torpedo to make the kill? The thread you link to suggests that you could use this capability to torpedo incoming torpedo's. Again. Maybe, if the torpedo could get close enough. But no submarine would stick around long enough surely to guide a torpedo in that close. Presuming this is a classic SSN duel (say 688I vs Akula) of the kind we play in 688I and Dangerous Waters. The 688 gets into a good firing position, closes the range and fires two torpedo's at the Akula. A few minutes later, the Akula detects the torpedo's and snapshots back two torpedo's of its own. The next defensive move for the 688 is to turn tail, put the Akula's torpedo's 30 degrees off the stern, increase speed to open up the range and change depth to get below / above a thermal layer. At that point, the wire controlling the torpedo shots has been broken: the original torpedo's can not be guided in. You could fire another torpedo (I suppose) at the torpedo's, but given those torpedo's are behind you coming towards you in a straight line; TMA is going to be very inaccurate. And anyway, traveling at 20+ knots in the opposite direction in which you want the torpedo to go is not conducive to keeping the wire intact ( and god help you if the torpedo tangled in your propeller. The only reference I've ever seen to torpedo's self destructing before hitting the target and people torpedoing torpedo's is in the Michael DiMicurio novels I read as an adolescent. And they were near future science fiction. And even if that function does exist in Submarine Warfare: is it really such an immersion killer that it hasn't been modelled. I'm sure that their are aspects of targeting for sidewinder missiles that haven't been modelled on the F18's. if it was a survey sim like Dangerous Waters, I might be missed. But the point of command is that you are the strategist and tactician, and that you leave the method of carrying out your decisions to the AI.
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09-26-13, 09:43 AM | #20 |
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DAB, get TOM CLANCY SSN and experiment with your scenario then film it. The game is ARCADISH enough to be understood by anyone!
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09-26-13, 11:36 AM | #21 |
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Can a wire guided torp be shut down? (in the game)
Can a wire guided torp track the launching sub? (kill yourself?). I read on the other forum torps are not homing on own ship properly when they somehow get in the way.
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09-26-13, 12:26 PM | #22 |
Warfaresims
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Hello,
1) No. 2) We currently do not model cutting the guidance wire so the torpedo always views its launching sub as friendly and thus never attacks it. We intend to add this feature in a future update. Thanks! |
09-26-13, 01:35 PM | #23 |
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This game and other sim games for that matter, will never be 100 % realistic.
And it's a good reason to why. Markus |
09-26-13, 07:26 PM | #24 | |
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That's why its usually much more enlighting and pleasant to discuss "old" stuff (Ancient, WW2 or at best Cold war era) with military people so as not to get into these sort of convoluted "I know but can't tell" situations. I know one (now retired) Russian and ex-soviet staff analyst. We came round togeatehr once and we had to evade all subjects related to our countries or modern doctrinal issues. (On the other hand we did have a blast talking about the 1980s Angola border war). So yeah... modern warfare and doctrine issues can be problematic. That's just how things are in the gaming industry - don't expect to make a relaistic game about SWAT if you plan on asking actual SWAT to tell you how they run things |
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09-27-13, 08:25 AM | #25 | |
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What I'm questioning is the assertion that because something can be done in an arcade(ish) like game, it must be proof positive that this capability exists. Likewise, an inability to do the same in another game (let's say Dangerous Waters) doesn't prove that the capability doesn't exist. The second half of my post then questions under what senario in real life a naval commander would stay put and make use of this ultra-secret niche capability when the prudent thing to do is turn tale and open up the range. In research, journalism, intelligence and academia; something is not proven until there are (at least) two independent sources to colloberate it. A mass market computer game, whether it be SSN, 688I or Command:MANW is not a reliable source. If you want to to prove that this capability exists: then you will need to provide alternative, rigourous sources. Until then, saying that something is technically possible and could be done is no reason to insist that it "must" be added into a simulation.
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09-27-13, 12:40 PM | #26 | |
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2- True, because showed in SSN, technically possible, and presenting a certain edge in combat, those facts mean that it is done or not done in reality. It does not mean anything, it is neutral! 3- As I said earlier "Moreover, I don't think that anyone in their right mind would deliberately prove your point or sustain my description, by producing a page of a manual explaining how things get done in a combat environment." If it is classified and technically possible or probable (as you would not classified something impossible except for counter-intel. purpose), the info will be denied or ignored. Now, it can also be ignored or laughed at, when totally impossible or irrelevant without discarding a counter-intel angle. 4- I am not into proving something right or wrong, especially about Sonars or Torpedo technology. 5- In intelligence work, theories are developed based on possible moves to reach a goal based on a possible motive as much as there are moves on a check board for a given piece. Sometimes to get a theory started then checked, a single iota of info is enough. Corroboration is always open to interpretations. Finally, intel theories are often proved after the facts, yet it comes with the territory. 6- In research papers in the Academia environment, you list the source and reference of info. But your interpretation is not cited as it is your perception based on interpretation of existing information. To make a point, you use your materials as stepping stones to cross a river, and a leap of faith is necessary to step from one stone to the next. Eisnstein started his theory of time relativity by wondering how it would be to travel on a beam of light. Vision and imagination are almighty. Now you take a book like "Anti-Submarine Warfare" from David Owen published by Naval Institute Press Annapolis Maryland in 2007, ISBN1-59114-014-5, and you will find interesting stepping stones on page 214. You can also take the "United States Submarines" from David Randall Hinkle, Harry H Caldwell, Arne C Johnson, the Naval Submarine League, and Sonalysts Inc., published by Barnes & Noble books in 2004 ISBN 0-7607-6219-8.Then read the chapter called "The Future". More stepping stones and also probable info that became reality, since. Then on page 342 a description of a future submarine combat system to provide operators with detailed knowledge of their environment and the tactical scene in 3D, which reminds me of a "low-fidelity sim bordering on arcade". Which 3D system alike is available for ordinary people to admire in a documentary presented by Boeing called "Fighter Pilot, Operation Red Flag" ID4879K28D by Stephen Low, originally an IMAX movie. There are also, Jane's "Underwater Warfare System, XXXX-XXXX" and Jane's "Fighting Ships, XXXX-XXXX". I haven't looked into Jane's "Unconventional Weapons" and Jane's "Pocket Book of Naval Armament". 7- True, I agree. Turning tail and opening up the distance to fight another day is also within the range of possible behaviors to attack the same sub later in its baffle. You can do that, when a torpedo has been launched at you from a long range to outrun it, if you know the torpedo range, speed and bearing. i.e. A stealth/long range torpedo is fired at you 5 miles away at 000. That Torpedo has a top speed of 36kts and a range on average (following the game you are playing) of 10 miles. You will outrun that missile by turning away at 1/2 speed(LA class depending of the game), as the torpedo will run out of fuel approximately when it closes to one mile away from you. Or you can unload some noise makers, fire a MOSS, reach the next Thermocline, shoot down/up that incoming torpedo, scare the hell out of the enemy skipper, and give him a finger!...You are the "Pasha", you can do whatever you want. Last edited by biosthetique; 09-27-13 at 06:57 PM. |
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10-18-13, 08:11 AM | #27 |
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Let's not over-complicate things. What this boils down to is that you have assumed a capability for a weapon based on a computer game, with no corroborative evidence from anywhere else, then criticised the designers of CMNAO for not including this alleged 'feature', claiming that this omission makes their software 'unrealistic'.
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10-18-13, 08:33 AM | #28 | |
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Agreed, let's not complicate CMNAO, it is already complicated as it is, let's keep it simple stupid! But thank you for participating, you now feel you contributed to a problem. Your parents must be proud of you! |
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10-18-13, 08:38 AM | #29 |
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I'm sorry, but I am unable to respond to this until it is translated into grammatically correct English...
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10-18-13, 08:45 AM | #30 |
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Don't be sorry!...I am confident that opinion will dissipate as soon as you will spend some quality time into you favorite local pub!
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