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10-24-21, 03:29 PM | #16 | |||||||||||
Navy Seal
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Let's open a parenthesis on British and Commonwealth ensigns
Recently I have been digging on the internet for information on the ensigns worn by various types of British and Commonwealth vessels, and I thought I would share my findings here in case someone is interested.
Summary of the flags mentioned in this post and their usage: Merchant vessels / Some troop transports (?) / Some Landing Ships / CAM/MAC ships British Red Ensign * As above Australian Red Ensign As above Canadian Red Ensign As above New Zealand Red Ensign As above South African Red Ensign ** Royal Mail Ships (?) Royal Mail Ensign Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels / Q-ships / Hospital Ships (?) Admiralty, Government Service or Transport Ensign Troop Transports (?) / Hospital Ships (?) Board of Trade Ensign Vessels commissioned in one of the Commonwealth navies (ilcuding some landing ships), except Q-ships White Ensign _______________________ Notes * The Red Ensign (undefaced) was also the civil ensign flown aboard merchant vessels registered in British India. While the Raj had its own version of the Red Ensign defaced with the so called "star of India", this flag had only a limited use: Quote:
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** Since 1928 South Africa had its own national flag, nonetheless... Quote:
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_______________________ That should be all for now guys. In case you find any wrong information, if you think I have missed some notable flag or vessel type, or if you can provide new information relevant to the subject of this post, I will gladly update it with your imputs Last edited by gap; 10-24-21 at 05:42 PM. |
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10-24-21, 06:33 PM | #17 | |
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By the way, American pilots who joined the British Air Force also fought under the British flag in the Battle of the English Channel. They were seconded to the British forces. This applied not only to airplanes but also to ships. |
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10-25-21, 05:50 PM | #18 | |||
Navy Seal
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Before I do it, I have created a table which should cover most of the paint colours mentioned in the document (HEX values taken from here): Talking about the so called "Measure 16-Thayer System", I read that it was specifically designed for weather conditions similar to North Atlantic ones but, as far as I can understand, only troop transports and cargo ships commissioned in the US Navy were painted with it. The following link has a comprehensive list of vessels to which the said pattern might have applied: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-ships.html What I wonder is: which was the exact employment of those vessels by USN? Would they sail within mixed convoys? http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ might have some answers Quote:
Thank you mate, my own pleasure I had already read that during Normandy landings (or maybe it was for Operation Torch, I don't remeber now), US aircraft had adopted British markings, I wasn't aware of the British ensign being flown on US ships though. Do you have any link which might add some detail? |
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10-25-21, 06:59 PM | #19 |
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https://www.historylearningsite.co.u...le-of-britain/
Here is another table of colors for painting Boats. I use this color scheme to create skins. Last edited by U-190; 10-25-21 at 07:26 PM. |
10-26-21, 01:32 AM | #20 |
Gefallen Engel U-666
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Well you "need not submit a report of its destruction as it is now 'unclassified''... I simply had googled 'WWII naval camouflage paint'; and there it was-all in one manual??!!...in history research this is: "primary source material" if ever! I only displayed the two Thayer System diagrams color schemes XI &XII plates as they were the only two merchant classification vessels shown in the manual as per your OP; after which, I romped further afield on the Jeremiah O'Brian(same source as Mr._M)and USS Allegan AK-225's unique paint schemes.
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10-26-21, 10:10 AM | #21 |
Silent Hunter
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In re: cargo ship colors, here's a very useful series of color sketches by a convoy commodore during the war. Apparently some ships did indeed keep the black hull paint for a long time after war broke out...also, tankers were often painted with tan superstructure and funnel for some reason.
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10-26-21, 10:54 AM | #22 |
Gefallen Engel U-666
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/\ NICE! A convoy commander's eyewitness sketches are also primary source material! though I'd marvel at the time taken to do thse meticulous renditions by a convoy commodore in his quarters.??!...perhaps better spent keeping an eye out for Endraß & Co.(notorious Wolfpack West) periscopes etc.. especially in "June 1941 outbound from Liverpool" Edit: JEEZE! I just recollected my own Primary Source Material from a day of sailing off Mare Island at the confluence of the Sacrarmento River and Napa River at SF Bay's northernmost San Pablo Bay in 2018. I glimpsed an actual Victory Cargo ship moored at the Merchant Marine Academy for refitting maintenance to engines and hastily nailed it with my flipphone to starboard while on a westerly tack: It is the Red Oak Victory; usually moored at the Richmond Museum near Oakland. Here's a video replete with Ocean Gray 5-0 paint
being moored at the academy; probably the day I saw it!
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" Last edited by Aktungbby; 10-27-21 at 12:21 AM. |
10-26-21, 08:33 PM | #23 | |||||
Navy Seal
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What about ships? You had mentioned something about US vessels wearing British ensigns. I know that a number of US destroyers were involved in the so called "Neutrality Patrols", which actually were a covert way for the USA to defend their own coasts and Allied shipping against the U-baot menace even before December '41, but I believe those warships to have sailed under US flag. Quote:
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I wish we could have access to the full series. Ah btw I have found the name of the talented Commodore, he was the Rear Admiral Hugh Hext Rogers. Here is some background: https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/...onvoy-drawings Quote:
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10-27-21, 01:16 AM | #24 |
Grey Wolf
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Stumbled upon this thread covering the same topic as well:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218 Some interesting information from there: - Early war British regulations were supposedly different: "black hulls and funnels, with brown or dark buff superstructure, masts and derricks" vs later in the war: "dark grey hull and funnel, with brown or dark buff as above" and by 1943: "By 1943 Allied shipping was pretty standardised on all over grey. However the exact shade could vary depending on what was available. Where possible many still used dark grey hull and lighter upper works." - availability of specific paints was a problem especially if ships were spread over many ports, so it wouldn't be unusual to have convoy consist of varied paint schemes. Still, general rule was to paint everything in dull colours. -on varnished wood: "many of the older ships had varnished brown derricks and masts, and this was often retained as the dull colour was considered sufficient" - decks and upper surfaces were painted in dullest possible colours by ships approaching European waters, because of widespread fear of being bombed by Condor aircraft. This was done outside of regulations, often at sea with any paints on hand so shades would vary depending on what paints were available. |
10-27-21, 02:04 AM | #25 | |||||
Gefallen Engel U-666
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" Last edited by Aktungbby; 10-27-21 at 02:29 AM. |
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10-27-21, 04:22 AM | #26 | |
Grey Wolf
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Sorry for hijacking this thread... |
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10-27-21, 09:01 AM | #27 | |||||
Grey Wolf
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So in fact, "dull" paint was better than "light grey" ? ... This would be logical, since dark paint will render your ship less noticeable from the air and during night times. Last edited by Mister_M; 10-27-21 at 03:15 PM. |
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10-27-21, 09:38 AM | #28 | |
Grey Wolf
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Hence why (unfortunately for someone wishing his ship models to look cool) "dull" also means "boring" :-) |
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10-27-21, 09:53 AM | #29 | |
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I think. that I should try to draw something for ships using a color table courtesy of our amigos. |
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10-27-21, 10:32 AM | #30 | |||
Navy Seal
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Another of the convoy sketches posted by iambecomelife is notable too, as it depicts a number of funnels painted in brilliant colours: Unfortunately its resolution is rather poor. Notes and captions are not easily discernible, but despite that I managed identifing the convoy as Convoy SL.60 (July 1940). What would be interesting is comparing funnel colors with the company colours of each ship. Quote:
By the way: did you manage solving the problem of LOD models not matching the color of main models (i.e. configurable textures not applying to them)? Has anyone checked if two ships sharing the same 3D model can be rendered at the same time with two different textures if one of them is set as a "proxy clone" with its own texture? Both issues might be a major obstacle to having more ship color variety in game |
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