Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[antikristuseke]

When your next door neigbour escalates violent rethoric to actual violent land grabs preparations are in order, wouldn't you say?

[CCIP]

Yeah, it's pretty inevitable at this point. You can't say it's not reactive.

And anyway, the sad truth is, I don't think the West believes in this ceasefire any more than Russia does, despite what both sides may say.

[August]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

When your next door neigbour escalates violent rethoric to actual violent land grabs preparations are in order, wouldn't you say?

[mapuc]

I'm sorry that I stated my opinion about this..what do I know I'm not an expert on this, I can only read the news here in the west and from Russia(English of course)

And I found the article interesting and I think that until we know 100 % for sure, we should be a little "Defensive" and not swinging our fist infront of the face of Putin..

Markus

[antikristuseke]

We just see the same events from different perspectives and that is perfectly fine, no need for any apologies. The reaction to me seems perfectly defensive because if the unthinkable happens and there is a war between NATO and Russia there will be need for armored units on the front line (hint: the country I live in will be part of the front lines). In case of that war the only thing that needs to happen to cut the land route to the Baltic states is for Kaliningrad oblast to be linked up with Belarus, to stop that from happening immediately there will be need for heavier units on the groud ready to respons with some speed. Ofcourse that is just one of the reasons.
I really hope that it does not come to this, I'd much rather start a family and live in peace than be forced to take up arms, but that is beyond my control.

[CCIP]

For balance, since Nemtsov's murder has been mentioned in regard to Ukraine, let's make note of the fact that 5 former Yanukovich officials, mostly regional pro-Russian governors, have been found dead in the Ukraine since the end of January (4 of them in just the last couple of weeks):
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31855700

Although suicide is suggested in all of the cases, it seems awfully coincidental for so many people in similar positions to decide to kill themselves all at once

[mapuc]

This was scary to read.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015...imea.html?_r=0

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mapuc

This was scary to read.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015...imea.html?_r=0

Markus

Not entirely surprising, but more politically motivated than military. Crimea and Ukraine isn't worth cracking open the Topol-Ms for, but it's a sabre that can be rattled, and Russia likes to do it from time to time, because they can. If Obama had said such a thing he'd have been impeached in two seconds flat, likewise his predecessor. Dictators or the puppets of them can make comments like that as part of their efforts to appear 'strong' to their public against all the threats that they have told their public about which is the reason why sacrifices have to be made to keep the country strong.
It works in most, if not all, countries.

[Sbygneus]

It would more elegant and effective if Russian authorities scared us no more than once a year with their missiles. Otherwise they are just ridiculous. Putin tried to scare Poland several Times in the last few years with Iskanders being depolyed in Kaliningrad Oblast.

I find the buckup that Putin still has in Russian society much more scary then missiles. I dont reckognise this nation any more. Maybe I was wrong about them all the time.

[CCIP]

(double post)

[CCIP]

Here's the thing: Russians are people. Like most people, they like food on the table and a sense of security. There's no mystery to Putin's popularity among a majority of Russians - so far, his regime has done a better job of out than any immediate alternative. Take away that security, and the support will eventually melt away. And it will.

Otherwise, this is exactly what I'm talking about with obsolete nation-state thinking - dividing people into "us" and "them", generalizing a multi-ethnic, extremely complex society into something you can be right or wrong about, ascribing mythical qualities to banal economic realities. The problem is that when you replace "Russia" with "the west" and "Iskanders in the Kaliningrad oblast" with "F-15s in Lithuania", you begin to see the mindset of Russians who are also wondering if they ever knew the West or something.

Nationalist thinking is a cancer. The only reason that Russia seems more dangerous with it than the Ukraine or Poland is that Russia is bigger and has nuclear weapons. Otherwise it's all the same to me. As to the Ukraine - and let's not forget this discussion is still about the Ukraine - it's still important to remember that nationalist thinking and inability to solve problems of federalization and economics is what got them there.

[Sbygneus]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Here's the thing: Russians are people. Like most people, they like food on the table and a sense of security. There's no mystery to Putin's popularity among a majority of Russians - so far, his regime has done a better job of out than any immediate alternative. Take away that security, and the support will eventually melt away. And it will.

Otherwise, this is exactly what I'm talking about with obsolete nation-state thinking - dividing people into "us" and "them", generalizing a multi-ethnic, extremely complex society into something you can be right or wrong about, ascribing mythical qualities to banal economic realities. The problem is that when you replace "Russia" with "the west" and "Iskanders in the Kaliningrad oblast" with "F-15s in Lithuania", you begin to see the mindset of Russians who are also wondering if they ever knew the West or something.

Nationalist thinking is a cancer. The only reason that Russia seems more dangerous with it than the Ukraine or Poland is that Russia is bigger and has nuclear weapons. Otherwise it's all the same to me. As to the Ukraine - and let's not forget this discussion is still about the Ukraine - it's still important to remember that nationalist thinking and inability to solve problems of federalization and economics is what got them there.

Now you are generalising. I talk about my doubts and/or fears. That doesnt necessary make me nationalist. Also, critisising someone doesnt make me his enemy.
As you said we are all people. If someone threats me with big stick I react. And its Russian stick now. Where do you see a place for nationalism I dont know.
When I see the shrinking crowd of Russian opposition it makes me worry, thats all.

I dont forget that this topic is about Ukraine. To remind it, I would like to repeat obvious fact. It is Russia who grabs the land.

[Onkel Neal]

It's been mighty quiet in Ukraine, have they managed to settle things down a bit over there?

I see the German leader showed up out of respect for the big ceremony.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32682063

[Betonov]

Our global hypocrites of a government choose to boycott.
Spineless worms.

[Catfish]

It was the lowest common denominator, they would agree upon.
No partaking in the parade, no military greeting, and nothing else.

What the West did to lead to the Ukraine crisis, as well as the russian action, is nothing to write home about.


Someone said national thinking is a cancer. I agree, the concept of nations is obsolete. But with the "intelligence" of man as a species, the dumb patriotic right wingers will always win. Everywhere.
And man does not live long enough, to learn.

It really would be nice to leave and go somewhere far away, and let them who want kill themselves. And some religious weirdoes did just that a long time ago .. good those times are gone..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa