How can I revert torpedoes to a prior mod?

ESPY · 04-21-24, 08:44 PM

I recently applied the TMO Update BH mod and really like a lot of what it changes. However, the early war torpedoes in this mod are way too frustrating. I know they are intended as a more accurate representation of the historical Mk-14s, which I appreciate, but only to an extent.

I've been doing the Torpedo Attack sub school mission over and over again under different circumstances in an attempt to find the optimal setup but regardless of track angle and pistol setting I can't get any better than a 25 - 40% hit rate (even though all are on target). I see changes in the cause of the failure at different setups, like for example fewer prematures but more deep runners, or fewer deep runners but more duds, but ultimately I haven't found any combination that seems to improve the overall hit rate beyond 1 or 2 out of 4 fired.

I'm wondering if it's possible to revert to the original TMO torpedoes by simply copying the correct files from TMO into the appropriate folders under my TMO Update BH game folder? If so, what would those files be? I see 4 torpedoes_US files (.dat, .dsd, .sim, .zon) in the Data\Library folder. Is it as simple as replacing one or multiple of these?

Thanks!
ESPY

propbeanie · 04-22-24, 05:31 PM

First thing to check is your Options / Gameplay settings on the menus. For the Main Menu, in which your Single Missions, War Patrols, Sub School, and MultiPlayer are configured, you use the Options and then Gameplay Settings

Stock Main Menu

However, if you are doing a career, you have to use the menu you get to by clicking on the wooden radio console to the left side of the Captain's Office prior to going on patrol. Choose Gameplay Settings there also. Each career can have its own set of options set:

FotRSU's Captain's Office:

Note that the box for Dud Torpedoes in the Capatain's Office is empty, so there will not be dud torpedoes. So make certain you have Dud Torpedoes turned-off in both of those menus. Then, if you still have issues, you would use Silent3Ditor to open the Data /Library / Torpedoes_US.dat file, highlight the desired torpedo you want to edit, select its ID in the upper middle, Ctrl-C to copy the number (such as 0x8f346dcc43bfbcb2), then click on the "sim" file link in the upper right of the window, and once in that file, use the "Edit - Find" menu (Ctrl-F) and use Ctrl-V to paste that ID number into the Find dialog. 'Search', and it should highlight the appropriate "amun_torpedo" for the desired torpedo. Select the settings below the found item, and edit the desired settings in there, whether it'd be guidance or pistol. Note that there are several of those settings that deal with dates and angles of impact...

ESPY · 04-22-24, 10:12 PM

Thanks pb, but duds are definitely enabled…which explains my 60-75% dud/failure rate.

What I really wanted to know is if I can replace the entire torpedoes_US.dat file with the one from the original TMO 2.5 and if there are any other files I would need to replace with it?

Thanks,
ESPY

propbeanie · 04-23-24, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESPY

Thanks pb, but duds are definitely enabled…which explains my 60-75% dud/failure rate.

What I really wanted to know is if I can replace the entire torpedoes_US.dat file with the one from the original TMO 2.5 and if there are any other files I would need to replace with it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie

... you would use Silent3Ditor to open the Data /Library / Torpedoes_US.dat file, highlight the desired torpedo you want to edit, select its ID in the upper middle, Ctrl-C to copy the number (such as 0x8f346dcc43bfbcb2), then click on the "sim" file link in the upper right of the window, and once in that file, use the "Edit - Find" menu (Ctrl-F) and use Ctrl-V to paste that ID number into the Find dialog. 'Search', and it should highlight the appropriate "amun_torpedo" for the desired torpedo...

Most likely not, due to that "ID" issue slightly described above. Each 'device' is linked by IDs, and changing one file of a set will most likely result in broken ID links. You might get away with changing the whole set of 4x Torpedoes_US files, but those also have ID links to other files, such as Particles that might be broken also. You could try the whole Torpedoes_US set (built as a mod) and see what happens, but if you then CTD when a torpedo impact is to happen, or possibly the torpedo passes through a ship, or perhaps you lose the 'explosion' or sound effect, you'll know you broke something.

ESPY · 04-23-24, 08:57 PM

Thanks for the explanation pb. Makes sense now.

Just as an FYI, here's an example of what I just experienced on my latest career patrol, Jan '42.

On way to patrol area encountered a 9 kt convoy of 4 merchants with one escort at night. With the BH Update mod night surface attacks are possible and I approached on the surface to about 2000 yds on the opposite side of the escort. Targeted a 7,500 ton Maru and fired 4 on slow speed, contact only, about a 15 degree bearing shot that resulted in a nearly zero gyro angle. 3 of 4 hit and it sank.

I was able to escape on the surface to a safe distance while the escort came looking where I used to be. Turned to end-around and setup again with still several hours till daylight. Group had slowed now to 6 kts. Targeted a big 10k tanker with a 10 degree bearing shot, slow speed, contact only, again about zero gyro. All 4 were duds. Meanwhile, the escort was still searching way back where I used to be, and nobody reacted to the 4 duds so I was able to end-around again and setup for a stern shot. This time the first torp was a dud, the 2nd hit (causing it to sink) and 3 and 4 ran under (or possibly didn't register since the target was already considered sunk by the game.)

I proceeded on to my patrol area so I had some torpedoes left to satisfy my patrol objective. Encountered a lone 6kt tanker, again at night. Setup for a surface 10 degree bearing shot, slow, contact only. Watched all 3 run under. End-around, setup again, different angle this time, again 3 ran under. Now with just 2 bow tubes left I did a final end around and fired 2. Both ran under!

I don't know if it's this mod or a glitch in my install, but that's 4 hits out of 20 shots, when all 20 appeared to be on target. 3 out of the first 4 and 1 out of the next 16. If this is the intended behavior of this mod...ugh! I love the night surface attacks, but dang!

ESPY

propbeanie · 04-24-24, 06:32 AM

That is indeed the way Bubblehead1980 set the torpedoes up, to the point that even if you "cheat" and use slow speed for the contact pistol that the steerage and depth-keeping are still off more than real life. That is also due to the fact that even with "realistic" settings in the torpedo files, the incidence of a failure is oddly still not high enough. Part of that is the way the DirectX v9 dll files handle "random" in that it chooses almost all "good" percentages first, and then the failures after, such that if it is a 50-50 chance, and you shoot 10, the first five shots work, the last five fail. Lather Rinse Repeat. So with a 70% failure rate, you'll have 3 good, then 7 fails. That might be just the pistol settings, whereas the depth-keeping has a percentage of deviation, and if it is set with only one setting, will always use that, and the percentage it is then "random"... With FotRSU, where we don't have nearly as strong of failure settings, I have had patrols where with 24 torpedo loadout, I had 23 failures. How much was skipper?? How much was torpedoes?? and with the torpedoes, how much was pistol and how much was depth??? If you are close enough to the target, and the pistol impacts, you can at least "hear" the clang and "Torpedo was a dud, sir", if it's not too busy in the game at the time.

btw, why the game treats the premature detonation and/or under-run as the torpedo never existing as far as the targets are concerned, is beyond me. Someone (Faith??) tried to make a mod that would have the ships react to the premature explosions at least, by imparting some damage to a nearby ship. It worked to a point, but did not satisfy the issue. If a ship can "see" a torpedo, and steer to "avoid" it, surely the game can then alert the grouping to a nearby submarine and they can start to helm?? Same with the premature detonation... oh well...

ESPY · 04-24-24, 02:06 PM

Ok, thanks again pb. So these uber-bad torpedoes are a feature, not a bug. Got it!

So if I want original TMO type performance, best option would be to use Silent 3ditor as you describe above to get my current toepedoes_US.dat file to match the details of original one from TMO, while keeping current IDs intact. Correct?

Thanks,
ESPY

ESPY · 04-25-24, 04:02 PM

Hey propbeanie, I downloaded Silent 3ditor and I think I successfully navigated to the correct location and found the settings to edit. I think at first I want to only tweak the depth problems for the pre-'43 Mk 14.

If I'm understanding correctly, I should just need to change the chance value here from 75% to something lower, correct?

Thanks,
ESPY

ESPY · 04-25-24, 07:40 PM

Well, I went ahead and made the change. Result: CTD.

Tried to revert, still CTD.

As much as I love the night surface attacks that the BH Update brings to TMO, I think I’m pretty much done with this mod.

This leaves me not sure where to go with this game. TMO+RSRD+OTC was too easy for me. I get the sense that FOTRSU will be too based on what I’ve read. Was really hoping TMO BHU would work but those torps are just too ridiculous.

KaleunMarco · 04-25-24, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESPY

This leaves me not sure where to go with this game. TMO+RSRD+OTC was too easy for me.

which aspect of TMO+RSRD+OTC was too easy? reliable torpedoes? easy escorts? aircraft attacks? something i havent mentioned?

ESPY · 04-25-24, 08:05 PM

My last career with TMO+RSRD+OTC started with 5 patrols totaling >150k tons. Encountered lots of unescorted merchant traffic and then at one point a solo carrier that I sank with 4 torps. Over those 5 patrols I maybe had to evade anti-sub activity once.

BHU has a lot to like…night surface attacks, nice changes to campaign layer, depth charges,etc. It fixed a lot of what I thought was missing before. But 4 hits out of 22 torps goes a bit far imo with the ‘realistic’ torpedoes. Something in between would have been nice.

Was hopeful a simple edit of the Guidance parameter above would do the trick but I obviously messed up somewhere.

propbeanie · 04-26-24, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESPY

Well, I went ahead and made the change. Result: CTD.

Tried to revert, still CTD.

As much as I love the night surface attacks that the BH Update brings to TMO, I think I’m pretty much done with this mod.

This leaves me not sure where to go with this game. TMO+RSRD+OTC was too easy for me. I get the sense that FOTRSU will be too based on what I’ve read. Was really hoping TMO BHU would work but those torps are just too ridiculous.

There is an option in S3D to "Save in New Mod", which would be the way to go when doing something like that. You do have to be careful that you do not edit other fields also. With that kind of edit, you would most likely have to clear the Save folder and start a new career, else the Save folder has mixed data that does not match.

ESPY · 04-26-24, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie

There is an option in S3D to "Save in New Mod", which would be the way to go when doing something like that. You do have to be careful that you do not edit other fields also. With that kind of edit, you would most likely have to clear the Save folder and start a new career, else the Save folder has mixed data that does not match.

Ok, I did delete my save folder but did not save as a mod and enable thru JSGME, just saved changes to that .sim file directly. Will try that next. Fortunately I’ve got multiple installations using MultiSH4 so I’ve got a clean 1.5 and another TMO-BHU version that are still good.

ESPY · 04-26-24, 09:45 AM

Or, here’s an idea, let me know if you think this would work:

BHU contains an optional mod called Torpedoes Early_TNT4B that makes the pre-‘43 torps resemble weaker TNT instead of Torpex. The mod contains only 2 files, the Torpedoes_US.sim and .zon.

Idea: Use S3editor to edit that .sim file, then save as new mod something like Torpedoes Early_TNT4B_BetterDepth.

My only concern is that I’m going directly to the .sim file and bypassing your initial suggestion to open the .dat file, copy ID, then find that ID in the .sim file. Also, not sure what the .zon file is and whether it requires any tweaks.

Editing this optional mod would allow me to create a version representing a more reliable, but still weaker pre-‘43 torp.

propbeanie · 05-03-24, 11:22 AM

So long as you edit a "matched" set of files, no issue with editing the sim file like that. The sim and the dat file "link" to each other by node ID number.

The reason to open both files is just to assure yourself that the dat and sim are indeed properly linked. But the torpedo sim file does have a "naming" convention inside of it also. Not all sim files are set-up like that...

04-21-24, 08:44 PM	#1
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	How can I revert torpedoes to a prior mod? I recently applied the TMO Update BH mod and really like a lot of what it changes. However, the early war torpedoes in this mod are way too frustrating. I know they are intended as a more accurate representation of the historical Mk-14s, which I appreciate, but only to an extent. I've been doing the Torpedo Attack sub school mission over and over again under different circumstances in an attempt to find the optimal setup but regardless of track angle and pistol setting I can't get any better than a 25 - 40% hit rate (even though all are on target). I see changes in the cause of the failure at different setups, like for example fewer prematures but more deep runners, or fewer deep runners but more duds, but ultimately I haven't found any combination that seems to improve the overall hit rate beyond 1 or 2 out of 4 fired. I'm wondering if it's possible to revert to the original TMO torpedoes by simply copying the correct files from TMO into the appropriate folders under my TMO Update BH game folder? If so, what would those files be? I see 4 torpedoes_US files (.dat, .dsd, .sim, .zon) in the Data\Library folder. Is it as simple as replacing one or multiple of these? Thanks! ESPY

04-22-24, 05:31 PM	#2
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,911 Downloads: 444 Uploads: 2	First thing to check is your Options / Gameplay settings on the menus. For the Main Menu, in which your Single Missions, War Patrols, Sub School, and MultiPlayer are configured, you use the Options and then Gameplay Settings Stock Main Menu However, if you are doing a career, you have to use the menu you get to by clicking on the wooden radio console to the left side of the Captain's Office prior to going on patrol. Choose Gameplay Settings there also. Each career can have its own set of options set: FotRSU's Captain's Office: Note that the box for Dud Torpedoes in the Capatain's Office is empty, so there will not be dud torpedoes. So make certain you have Dud Torpedoes turned-off in both of those menus. Then, if you still have issues, you would use Silent3Ditor to open the Data /Library / Torpedoes_US.dat file, highlight the desired torpedo you want to edit, select its ID in the upper middle, Ctrl-C to copy the number (such as 0x8f346dcc43bfbcb2), then click on the "sim" file link in the upper right of the window, and once in that file, use the "Edit - Find" menu (Ctrl-F) and use Ctrl-V to paste that ID number into the Find dialog. 'Search', and it should highlight the appropriate "amun_torpedo" for the desired torpedo. Select the settings below the found item, and edit the desired settings in there, whether it'd be guidance or pistol. Note that there are several of those settings that deal with dates and angles of impact... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

04-24-24, 06:32 AM	#6
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,911 Downloads: 444 Uploads: 2	That is indeed the way Bubblehead1980 set the torpedoes up, to the point that even if you "cheat" and use slow speed for the contact pistol that the steerage and depth-keeping are still off more than real life. That is also due to the fact that even with "realistic" settings in the torpedo files, the incidence of a failure is oddly still not high enough. Part of that is the way the DirectX v9 dll files handle "random" in that it chooses almost all "good" percentages first, and then the failures after, such that if it is a 50-50 chance, and you shoot 10, the first five shots work, the last five fail. Lather Rinse Repeat. So with a 70% failure rate, you'll have 3 good, then 7 fails. That might be just the pistol settings, whereas the depth-keeping has a percentage of deviation, and if it is set with only one setting, will always use that, and the percentage it is then "random"... With FotRSU, where we don't have nearly as strong of failure settings, I have had patrols where with 24 torpedo loadout, I had 23 failures. How much was skipper?? How much was torpedoes?? and with the torpedoes, how much was pistol and how much was depth??? If you are close enough to the target, and the pistol impacts, you can at least "hear" the clang and "Torpedo was a dud, sir", if it's not too busy in the game at the time. btw, why the game treats the premature detonation and/or under-run as the torpedo never existing as far as the targets are concerned, is beyond me. Someone (Faith??) tried to make a mod that would have the ships react to the premature explosions at least, by imparting some damage to a nearby ship. It worked to a point, but did not satisfy the issue. If a ship can "see" a torpedo, and steer to "avoid" it, surely the game can then alert the grouping to a nearby submarine and they can start to helm?? Same with the premature detonation... oh well... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

04-24-24, 02:06 PM	#7
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Ok, thanks again pb. So these uber-bad torpedoes are a feature, not a bug. Got it! So if I want original TMO type performance, best option would be to use Silent 3ditor as you describe above to get my current toepedoes_US.dat file to match the details of original one from TMO, while keeping current IDs intact. Correct? Thanks, ESPY Last edited by ESPY; 04-24-24 at 03:47 PM.

04-25-24, 08:05 PM	#11
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	My last career with TMO+RSRD+OTC started with 5 patrols totaling >150k tons. Encountered lots of unescorted merchant traffic and then at one point a solo carrier that I sank with 4 torps. Over those 5 patrols I maybe had to evade anti-sub activity once. BHU has a lot to like…night surface attacks, nice changes to campaign layer, depth charges,etc. It fixed a lot of what I thought was missing before. But 4 hits out of 22 torps goes a bit far imo with the ‘realistic’ torpedoes. Something in between would have been nice. Was hopeful a simple edit of the Guidance parameter above would do the trick but I obviously messed up somewhere. Last edited by ESPY; 04-25-24 at 08:20 PM.

04-22-24, 10:12 PM	#3
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Thanks pb, but duds are definitely enabled…which explains my 60-75% dud/failure rate. What I really wanted to know is if I can replace the entire torpedoes_US.dat file with the one from the original TMO 2.5 and if there are any other files I would need to replace with it? Thanks, ESPY

04-23-24, 08:57 PM	#5
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the explanation pb. Makes sense now. Just as an FYI, here's an example of what I just experienced on my latest career patrol, Jan '42. On way to patrol area encountered a 9 kt convoy of 4 merchants with one escort at night. With the BH Update mod night surface attacks are possible and I approached on the surface to about 2000 yds on the opposite side of the escort. Targeted a 7,500 ton Maru and fired 4 on slow speed, contact only, about a 15 degree bearing shot that resulted in a nearly zero gyro angle. 3 of 4 hit and it sank. I was able to escape on the surface to a safe distance while the escort came looking where I used to be. Turned to end-around and setup again with still several hours till daylight. Group had slowed now to 6 kts. Targeted a big 10k tanker with a 10 degree bearing shot, slow speed, contact only, again about zero gyro. All 4 were duds. Meanwhile, the escort was still searching way back where I used to be, and nobody reacted to the 4 duds so I was able to end-around again and setup for a stern shot. This time the first torp was a dud, the 2nd hit (causing it to sink) and 3 and 4 ran under (or possibly didn't register since the target was already considered sunk by the game.) I proceeded on to my patrol area so I had some torpedoes left to satisfy my patrol objective. Encountered a lone 6kt tanker, again at night. Setup for a surface 10 degree bearing shot, slow, contact only. Watched all 3 run under. End-around, setup again, different angle this time, again 3 ran under. Now with just 2 bow tubes left I did a final end around and fired 2. Both ran under! I don't know if it's this mod or a glitch in my install, but that's 4 hits out of 20 shots, when all 20 appeared to be on target. 3 out of the first 4 and 1 out of the next 16. If this is the intended behavior of this mod...ugh! I love the night surface attacks, but dang! ESPY

04-25-24, 04:02 PM	#8
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Hey propbeanie, I downloaded Silent 3ditor and I think I successfully navigated to the correct location and found the settings to edit. I think at first I want to only tweak the depth problems for the pre-'43 Mk 14. If I'm understanding correctly, I should just need to change the chance value here from 75% to something lower, correct? Thanks, ESPY

04-25-24, 07:40 PM	#9
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Well, I went ahead and made the change. Result: CTD. Tried to revert, still CTD. As much as I love the night surface attacks that the BH Update brings to TMO, I think I’m pretty much done with this mod. This leaves me not sure where to go with this game. TMO+RSRD+OTC was too easy for me. I get the sense that FOTRSU will be too based on what I’ve read. Was really hoping TMO BHU would work but those torps are just too ridiculous.

04-26-24, 09:45 AM	#14
ESPY Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 33 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Or, here’s an idea, let me know if you think this would work: BHU contains an optional mod called Torpedoes Early_TNT4B that makes the pre-‘43 torps resemble weaker TNT instead of Torpex. The mod contains only 2 files, the Torpedoes_US.sim and .zon. Idea: Use S3editor to edit that .sim file, then save as new mod something like Torpedoes Early_TNT4B_BetterDepth. My only concern is that I’m going directly to the .sim file and bypassing your initial suggestion to open the .dat file, copy ID, then find that ID in the .sim file. Also, not sure what the .zon file is and whether it requires any tweaks. Editing this optional mod would allow me to create a version representing a more reliable, but still weaker pre-‘43 torp.

05-03-24, 11:22 AM	#15
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,911 Downloads: 444 Uploads: 2	So long as you edit a "matched" set of files, no issue with editing the sim file like that. The sim and the dat file "link" to each other by node ID number. The reason to open both files is just to assure yourself that the dat and sim are indeed properly linked. But the torpedo sim file does have a "naming" convention inside of it also. Not all sim files are set-up like that... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna