Tesla: ‘There’s almost no reason to have a gas car’

[mapuc]

We are decades from movie-like autodrive cars.

So much do I know:
In order to work fully each car need a transponder, which collect info and send info to other cars nearby.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by August

Kinda defeats the whole reason for a self driving car.

After reading much of the media's expectations, I can see why people might think that. But the State doesn't test and license Autosteer to drive on its roads and Tesla never said Autosteer replaces a licensed human driver. A driver needs to read the owners manual not the latest headline to become aware of its limitations.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Seems to me the authors of that article are making out to be worse than what is because they were not operating the vehicle properly and were the ones placing themselves and others in jeopardy. If people rely on the medias expectations of how a Tesla is supposed to operate then they will eventually be the cause of an accident.

Owner/operators of these cars need to read the owners manual and accept full responsibility for its operation.

From Tesla X MODEL owners manual. I presume others have the same warnings.

Too many incidents were the car suddenly got a life of its own, jump-started/accelerated from stop, slammed in the brakes while cruising. Add to that that "exciting" behaviour when turning into bends of a country road.



If the driver must all the time sit fully alarmed and hands ready to grab the wheel any second, and even then the car may suddenly play catch-me-if-you-can with the gas or break pedals, the the whole concept of autonomous driving imho is simply lead ad absurdum.



Musk knows this. He once said something like if Teslas cannot reliably fully autonomously drive, they are not more than totally overpriced gimmicks, something like that he said.


I also have a problem with the huge lossm of value. An e-car grows old the monent the battery is build into it, becasue the batteries always age, even if not use,d even if use,d even if kept ion storage unde rmost ideal conditions and with most ideal chargign status for storage. That thing looses on the maximum of power it cna hold, a tiny bit, but every day every hour. I know it from my e-bike batteries, the effect is real, you do not ntoice it form one month to the next, but you see a mild delcine in capacity form one yera to the next, and a much more obvious delcine form one year to the second or third next. Its cemistry you cannot avoid it. Even a lead-acid battery of old school technology sees this effect, though here it is extremely small.



Try to resell a lets say 6 or 8 years old e-car and not loosing an awful lot of money.



Considering all these implications and problems, e-cars imo are neither sustainable, nor cost-economic or rational. And I bet real money that in twnety years fossil fueld cars still drive in most parts of the world, maybe with the exception of Europe. Globally, there are just too many contexts, surroundings and situations where an -ecar simply bogs you down and does not provide the pragmatic 24/7 mobility that you expect from a car.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

After reading much of the media's expectations, I can see why people might think that. But the State doesn't test and license Autosteer to drive on its roads and Tesla never said Autosteer replaces a licensed human driver. A driver needs to read the owners manual not the latest headline to become aware of its limitations.

That is not true in my percpetion. Defnmetly the idea gets sold, both by state and potkicans and the industry, that we are very close to fully autmatic city with all-AI autonomnoisu drivng, driver-less cabs, there are even some (test?) busses in some cities that drive the line without a driver.

Either one talks about autonomous driving, or one means something different.

This is not some semi-automatic, AP-supported ILS landing with final approach flown by a human nevertheless. They talk about the fully autonomous car city.

Where cars chase each other or practice wolfpack tactics against human pedestrians.

[Rockstar]

According to the Tesla website: “ Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous”

[Skybird]

And I stick to what I say what kind of vision for the near future both industry and politics are advertising - and that goes far beyond this sobering text that is like a fall back to reality. They want fully autonomous driving, thats the political and the industrial advert.


What there is now, is pointless. When i need to spend as much attention to superivse the system as if I fully drive manually, then i have no use for that supervised sort of driving. Its idiotic - and Musk indicated that, too.



Add this, which I could have posted in three different threads. The whole idea of all-electric is unsustainable. And I say that since years. Germany for example would need for its imagined all-electric goals more additional copper than in the whole industrialisation in Germany so far has been used for electricty and telephone cables and other industrial additional purposes that consumed copper - ADDITIONALLY to the copper we already have spend. And that is just Germany.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...&postcount=323


Autonomous driving. Only electric cars. All electric industrial revolution. And all that is "sustainable". Pffft....

[Skybird]

Okay, lets make this the e-car thread.

Automotive expert Professor Michael Bargende, former holder of the Chair of Vehicle Drives at the Institute of Automotive Engineering in Stuttgart, believes that the effort required for the charging infrastructure is completely underestimated. This is especially true when it comes not to slow AC charging in one's own garage, but to fast DC charging on highways. There, modern electric vehicles draw electricity at 100, 150, 250 or more kilowatts. Because of the special nature of the charging process, the batteries can usually only be filled to 80 percent, as the last 20 percent takes an extremely long time. Also, the charging power does not necessarily remain constant, so that the real charging time is often longer than promised by the manufacturer.


In a calculation, Bargende compared the performance of a gasoline pump with that of a charging station and came to the conclusion that, at least at peak times, such as at a busy gas station during the vacation season, the performance of a gasoline or diesel pump could only be replaced if 50 electric charging stations were available for this purpose . The calculation, Bargende said, is based on the following assumptions:


The pumping capacity of a gasoline pump is 35 liters per minute, which corresponds to 18 megawatts of energy.
Since the efficiency of the electric car is higher than that of the combustion engine by a factor of three, six megawatts of charging power are needed to achieve the same effect.
With an average charging capacity of 120 kW, this would still mean that 50 charging stations would be needed to replace one gas pump. For a typical highway service station with twelve pumps, this would theoretically require the use of 600 charging pumps.

https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Good luck with charging on the Autobahn once e-cras are not just the official 2% of all traffic anymore.

Goooood luuuuck... Lots and lots of it.
Maybe taking away from people the freedom of miblity is the real urpose behind all this? Lock them not down, but lock them to their place? Like in the Middle Ages the peasants were bound to the soil of their master's farmland, were not allowed to travel or move away?

[August]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

After reading much of the media's expectations, I can see why people might think that. But the State doesn't test and license Autosteer to drive on its roads and Tesla never said Autosteer replaces a licensed human driver. A driver needs to read the owners manual not the latest headline to become aware of its limitations.

Of course, but if you have to remain 100% alert for hours and hours, with your hands on the wheel and your feet hovering over the pedals, constantly prepared to immediately take over like it says in that manual then you might as well drive manually and save yourself all the tension.

This isn't like autopilot on an aircraft where your altitude gives you time to put down the book you were reading and take over. If you loose autosteer in a fast moving car that is say going around a curve, you'll have to respond instantly to the situation or you will be off the cliff before you can prevent it. That is going to require a degree of constant concentration that will be difficult to maintain for any length of time. Ask anyone who has ever pulled guard duty how hard it can be to just stand there doing absolutely nothing while waiting for something to happen that may not.

Autosteer is never going to be anything but an expensive and useless gadget without it being truly and dependably autonomous.

[Onkel Neal]

If Toyota actually delivers on the hype, this could be a ... big deal (wanted to say game changer but Wendy won't allow it).

https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-745-...state-battery/

Toyota has been secretly developing a solid-state battery for EVs with a range of 745 miles and a charge time of 10 minutes, which could revolutionize the industry.

A solid-state battery is quite simple to explain. It stores its electrical charge in a solid electrolyte (other types of batteries use a liquid or paste-like one). They’re commonly used in small devices like pacemakers, RFIDs, and other things that demand little electricity. Because they have a very high energy density compared to other battery types (that is, they can store more electricity than other batteries of the same size), solid-state batteries seem like a natural fit for electric cars. But they don’t do well in cold weather, tend to weaken quickly after repeatedly getting charged and drained, are particularly costly, and have other issues that prevent them from going into every laptop, smartphone, and car.

The rise of EVs has made battery research a lot more profitable than it was a mere ten years ago, and scientists have been working on overcoming the shortcomings of solid-state batteries. Toyota is the first company that has come out and said it may have solved the range and battery weight problems.

[Skybird]

^ If that is true and the longevity is not just 3 years or so, then we start talking serious about e-cars.


Its just that I am a bit sceptical (like often ), since I know the physics problems to overcome are real and cannot be bribed away. Charging for 1000 km in 10 minutes? I want to see it working, then I believe it.



If its true for sure, we will learn more about it soon enough.


The problem with the charging infrastructure remains, however. Also, the costs. E-cars are expensive, its the reason why the numbers sold in Germany have dropped when the last round of subsidies ran out. Currently traders stockpile them in high heaps over here, they dont get rid of them.

[Dargo]

A student team from the university (Eindhoven University of Technology) began developing a new battery pack in 2022, aiming to bring down the charging time of an electric car. The students call the tight four-minute charging time a "pit-stop-worthy" speed. That they are testing with a race car is not for nothing, says team manager Julia Niemeijer. "If our technology works in the toughest conditions, it could be applied anywhere. At race speed, the battery will last about eight laps on a circuit, but the maximum range is about 250 kilometers." But the system can be adapted so that a range of 500 kilometers can also be achieved, without increasing the four-minute charging time, says Niemeijer. "If we make the package bigger and enough energy goes to it, we achieve the same charging time."

During development, the students focused mainly on cooling the batteries. With fast charging, the quality of a battery decreases because it can get very hot. "What we have done now is cool each cell in the battery pack," says Niemeijer. "This allows us to get much more heat out of it and we can charge much faster." For this purpose, a cooling system has been developed that runs coolant between the battery cells. The students say cooling at the cell level is not yet common. Therefore, they had to develop this themselves. "It was especially challenging that there were only a few millimeters of space between the cells. As a result, we had to be very precise. We are extremely happy to have found a method that makes this possible," says Niemeijer. By showing that it is possible to reduce the charging time of an electric car, the students aim to make electric driving more attractive to consumers. "You can say 'only buy electric cars', but then it is also important that consumers find it user-friendly," says Niemeijer.

When the technology can be applied in regular cars, Niemeijer does not dare to say. "I hope it will be soon, but we depend on external parties for the cells. We make the battery packs around them."

[mapuc]

The first of two steps seem to be within reach-the charging time.
Next step is to reduce the size and weight of the battery, but with same capacity.

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

The first of two steps seem to be within reach-the charging time.
Next step is to reduce the size and weight of the battery, but with same capacity.

Markus

With reducing charging time you do not need big batteries, this will solve above problems.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

With reducing charging time you do not need big batteries, this will solve above problems.

Imagine a car battery(used in ordinary gasolin cars) with which you could drive 700-800 km on when fully charged.

This is what I meant. Same capacity but only 1/20th of the size.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Probably not within the next decade.