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04-18-22, 07:53 PM | #1 |
Seaman
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Barbados, Belgium, Florida
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Trigger Maru overhauled or Fall of the rising sun ultimate?
Hello,
So sh4 is probably my least played silent hunter series, Im more into the altantic and u-boats. Very recently I tried the ato mods and taking a liking to them. And it got me thinking. Why dont I try a good old pacific campaign in a US sub, maybe my perception changed and I will have a blast ( using imperial beside for knots ). Now it seems there are two main mega mods to choose from. TMO or FotRS? I went over the mods and read them and their change a bit already, but as someone with very few hours in silent hunter 4 it doesnt really speak to me. Could a gentle soul explain to me their differences and possible recommendations? Or redirect me to a thread doing so, I havent found one. I usually enjoy a good challenge, evading smart destroyers is one of the more fun aspect for me, crash diving every 2 in game hours for planes a bit less ( I didnt get the memo you had to submerge during the entire day at the time). I also wouldnt say no to the one with the better effects and graphics. Thank you |
04-18-22, 08:22 PM | #2 |
Bosun
Join Date: Nov 2018
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FOTRSU is better for beginners. It's mainly a graphical and content overhaul of the game. In a lot of ways, it's easier than the vanilla game.
TMO is better for advanced players. Its aim is high realism and historical accuracy. It forces you to play smart or get sunk. Has a lot of content compared to the original too. Make sure you use TMO BH if you go for the latter. Bubblehead1980 is now the de facto TMO dev who is fixing TMO 2.5's problems and adding even more content. It has more realistic objectives than the original TMO. Escorts use mid-war sonar from the beginning. And you can make historically accurate night surface attacks. In addition to the required addons to install, get EAX sound mod and depth charge disturbance mod. |
04-18-22, 08:44 PM | #3 |
Admiral
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With both FotRS-U & TMOv2.5 BH edition... both are good in their own right.
Fall, is a bit easier but it does have in it, workings to add in, that make it as realistic as the player wants to make it... as it regards torp's & the dud rate on them. It does have as well, the Nipon Maru/Nihon Kaigun add in, for the IJN/merchie's addition. Then, there is vicker's work to add to it. So, there is a lot to add in to the base segment of it. As pointed out, TMO, being reworked by Bubblehead1980, to be able to actually be surfaced & attack targets... is a very big improvement, as is the more realistic ship traffic, the damages model... the ability to go with having torp's with tnt early on then having them with torpex. Currently, BH is working on a more added to updated version, which will be released... soon as He feels it is ready... which, is a good thing. I can only say... is try both & then roll with 1 set up... or the other... or heck, do both, if you have the space for it. It's all... up to you, in the final end analysis... Myself, I enjoy both... Hope this helps... as always. M. M.
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04-19-22, 02:34 AM | #4 |
Seaman
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Barbados, Belgium, Florida
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Thanks for the suggestions and clarification you two!
Honestly Im hard pressed to choose and will probably try both. ( I currently have on this pc sh3 gwx, lsh3, s5 twos, sh4 dark waters and sh4 ksd 2 ace. I think I need to be interned its becoming an obsession ) FotRS-U seem to have a lot of add on possibilities which I love, especially to make it less easy because that is not appealing to me. Which one has the best damage model ( for own ship and for ennemies)? Escorts using mid war sonar is an add on in jgsme or you have to run with it? I rather go with realistic but keep it challenging. Also identification book differs a lot? I dont like scrolling for hours through similar ships and see which one has a bent micro mast compared to the other that does not. I really like the system of sh5 and some modded sh3 interface of organising by superstructure, smoke stacks and so on. Is there any of that? Sorry for being overly precise but thats what I love about mods |
04-19-22, 03:36 AM | #5 | |
Navy Seal
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Far as sonar.. Well, in TMO the escorts do start with what in the game is "mid war sonar" , this was done because the early war sonar(while escorts could be tough) in TMO was just too easy to evade , even with modifications, and if modified to a point, it had same settings as mid war sonar. Basically even with Elite escorts, if went below 250-275 feet, escorts with Type93-1 sonar lost contact quickly. This made early war far too easy and quite boring t be honest. I used to rarely run patrols in early war because of it. Thus, I decided to use the Type 93-3A (Active) and Type 93-3P(passive) sonars for most escorts from the start. Quite realistic in terms of capability actually, as these sets do not give them super abilities in early war, but makes them a challenge. Player can thus still operate in realistic manner and survive, but they are just not push overs. Contrary to what some may think, Japanese ASW were not pushovers, even in early war. Coming from the U boat side of things, you may think mid war sonar and Allied mid war sonar comes to mind, but Japanese sonar was very different. Much different undersea war in the Pacific than Atlantic. I suggest reading books "Clear the Bridge!" by Rear Admiral Richard O Kane (top US skipper of WW II), Thunder Below by Admiral Eugene Fluckey(another top skipper), Wahoo (also by O Kane), Silent Running by Admiral James Calvert (Calvert as a junior officer on USS Jack, ran the Torpedo Data Computer, successful submarine), and Torpedoman by Ron Smith for the Enlisted perspective. Also for a great overall work, Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr, and also reading the patrol reports which are available to view for free at https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documen...atrol-reports/. These books and the reports will provide greater understanding of the Pacific Submarine campaign and much of what you read can be applied into the mods when running a patrol. Especially say in night surface attacks. Ability to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside the convoy in some instances, is a major part of TMO. Not easy, can still get shot up, but things have been balanced and tweaked so it is possible, requires player to think and even at times, some luck. IMHO, about most fun one will have in a sub sim. Of course, this tactic did not become standard until late 1943 and into 1944 for US subs. Check out the SH 4 patrol report and/or screenshot threads or the "Tell us what you are up to in your campaign", I have posted a lot of reports of my patrols, including night surface attack reports there. I also added a "Night Surface Tactics" post as well, to explain things for conducting this in TMO. Can't say which has "better" damage models, sure both are better than stock. I have always hated how SH 4 handled damage, esp with depth charges, so for player submarines, I did a rework of damage model for more realism. Now, it is rare for "instadeath" when a charge is close, unless its a direct hit. Most subs lost by depth charges were lost as damage to critical systems accumulated which will overwhelm your boat and crew, causing boat to reach collapse depth or force to surface, of course can't always surface. In upcoming version, damage model is further refined. For enemy ships, I did not do much in first version of TMO Update but in upcoming version, there are longer, more realistic sinking times. Make sure you use TheDarkWraith's fire damage mod for SH 4 when you run TMO, really adds to things. Recognition manuals in mods are the same. The different rec manuals in SH 3 and SH 5 mods were done likely due to hard code fixes, which we do not have in SH 4. There is a "identify vessel " feature in TMO (believe in FOTRS as well). Crew, in US subs, did the identification anyways based on Captains descriptions, so let your crew identify it, then find it in the rec manual. Last edited by Bubblehead1980; 04-19-22 at 04:02 AM. |
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04-19-22, 07:46 PM | #6 | |
Seaman
Join Date: Mar 2016
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Wow thanks for explaining the sonar thing, it makes more sense now. Do they get a better use out of it as the war goes on I assume? I will defo check those books out, for now I know there is a layer and that torpedoes are crap. Did anyone try to model them circling and coming back towards your boat? The surface attack aspect and the more realstic depth charge sounds great! I will check it out in game and go die in a s-boat within a week now. Thank you for your reply and the work you have put in to make our gaming experience enhanced |
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04-20-22, 01:00 AM | #7 | |
Navy Seal
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No problem. Yes, enemy sonar gear and skill does improve, as it did in real life, through the war . Will notice as war goes on, especially into 1944 the enemy ASW vessels becomes more difficult. This is due to improved sonar/sound gear being introduced (Type 93-5A and 5P, as well as later the Type3-1A and 1P on certain units. Type3-1A and 1P are the best gear, some of the more main line escorts and DD's get them in 1945. There are also more of them and more convoys and start seeing special built ASW vessels (Kaibokan) such as Type A, B, C, D escort vessels. TMO simulates the two type of depth charges used by IJN. At start of the war Japanese used Type 95 depth charge from start of the war. In late 1943 they began using Type 2 depth charge...which was heavier i.e. more explosive power, had a faster fall speed, and a hydrostatic exploder which could be set beyond at depths up to 480 feet (Some sources said a later improved exploder could be set up to 600 feet, which I believe is accurate based on patrol reports. Deep diving boats like Balao class coudl go to 600 feet and reported depth charges at that depth, being forced to 650 feet) (Japanese assumed US subs could not dive deeper than their boats at start of the war so their depth charges were designed accordingly, max depth setting was 300 ft for the Type 95 used at opening of the war. After a idiot congressman returned from a tour of the Pacific Theater, he bragged to US reporters that US subs were safe because Japanese were not setting their depth charges deep enough. Japanese intelligence of course got wind of this, and a improved exploder for Type 95 was introduced in 1943, and US sub losses went up rather suddenly...ten boats or so. Then the Type 2 was introduced and losses continued to climb. Yes, circle running torpedoes are modeled as are all the torpedo malfunctions. In TMO Update V1.0 they are modeled well and even more so in V2.0. Their improvement follows history. From start of war the MK 14 torpedo will run deeper than set, explode prematurely, and the the contact detonator is faulty, so will get quite a few dud torpedoes. Unlike the Germans, who solved their problems quickly, the US sub captains had to fight with their bureaucracy. The depth control issue was not really solved until early 1943 and some torpedoes still ran deep during the war, but as 10-12 feet in most cases as before. Magnetic exploders were never really fixed, they were deactivated by Pacific fleet boats in June 1943 and Australia based boats (Different command and Admiral Christie, the Commander, had played a key role in development of the magnetic exploder, so was reluctant to deactivate them) on 20 January 1944. Dud torpedoes are a issue until early October 1943, when first improved exploders on torpedoes made it into combat. MK 14 torpedo (steam) does always run a risk of a circle run, but its higher in early war. At least one submarine (Tuilibee) is known to have been lost to a MK 14 circle run (Feb 1944 off Palau) . Grunion (lost in Aleutian Islands) was most likely sunk by a circle run MK 14 as well. MK 18 electric torpedo had issues as well when introduced. MK 18-1 entered service in June 1943 (does in the sim as well, at a cost ) . While did not suffer the detonator problems of the MK 14, since it had the MK 8 contact only exploder, which was not magnetic and had a different impact exploder. However, first batches of MK 18's tended to run deeper than set, had battery issues preventing them from reaching full 29 knots and thus missing target, gyro issues, and a nasty tendency to circle run, more than the MK 14. One (USS TANG, commanded by Admiral O Kane) is confirmed sunk by MK 18 torpedo, and multiple others are suspected. Most bugs were resolved by late 1943 (this is simulated in TMO with MK 18 growing more reliable in Dec43/Jan 44) but circle run risk remained throughout the war. Night surface attacks are great. US subs began using the tactic on regular basis in mid 1943. lol Yes S boat is a tough ride, definitely not suited for surface attacks. I modified the S Boats in TMO, they were deep diving tanks in stock and original TMO. Now, they are not. Still tough but will not go very deep before reaches crush depth. |
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04-20-22, 08:28 AM | #8 | |
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2017
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As for the US side there a quite a few to chose from. I like Fotrs and TMOw/TW both. There's also A Brit mod called We Dive at Dawn, that's okay(british subs naturally) and a Japanese mod called IJN Jyunsen B if you want to play on the Japanese side in the pacific/indian oceans in their subs. Last edited by 1Patriotofmany; 04-20-22 at 08:37 AM. |
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04-20-22, 10:05 AM | #9 | |
Admiral
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Both of these, are... diamonds in the rough, to be frank. We dive, just a bit more... less rough about the edges than its counterpart, IJN Jyunsen B is. M. M.
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04-20-22, 01:04 PM | #10 | |
Seaman
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Barbados, Belgium, Florida
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Thank you for such an in depth answer, any more and we would have reached crush depth captain. My sh*tty jokes aside that is some great explanation. The more I learn about the US navy side of things in ww2 the more i am baffled by the incompetence of their higher ups. Between operation drumbeat, the mk14, the battle of midway ( sending scattered group by mistake which somehow worked out). Really a case where the lower officers and regular airmen/ sailors had to make the difference ( before the massive industry would pop a carrier every other day or something). My last question here, do you have mod recommendation that work with your mod beside the fire mod? Anything with better sound, graphics, gameplay (welp anything really) Depth charge sound disturbance was mentionned already by goldmastersims |
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04-20-22, 01:07 PM | #11 | |
Seaman
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Barbados, Belgium, Florida
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Yesss its what I meant by ato mods, I have ksd2 and dark waters both. Honestly I like ksd2 interface a lot more, but its way more instable. I think I got it figured out a bit more to have less crashes but it requires a few ctd to get the hang of it. Dark waters kept sending me to death by minefield in the channel in my type 2 coastal u-boat. I cheated with external camera to avoid mines because I have an irrational fear of them. Honestly they are super spooky to me, evil incarnate |
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04-20-22, 10:41 PM | #12 | |
Navy Seal
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You're welcome, details are important to understand the differences in the theaters and intricacies of the mod etc. I explain things thoroughly in the README so when/if you use TMO please check out the README, it is vital. I can always tell who read it and who did not lol. Graphics in TMO are already enhanced over stock, incorporated are already in the mod and am happy with them. Don't want to mess with anything, as changing the environment etc can have all sorts of ramifications. Visual sensors and other interact with the environment and everything is tuned to the "native" environment in TMO, changes, mods not tested with it , adjusted etc can have dractic effects. In the README will listed mods and some optional enhancement mods are included, README has the details. Number one mod though ( a customized version is forthcoming) is EAX Sound simulation by Vickers03. EAX sound sim changes the acoustic environment. The default sounds in SH 4 are terrible. EAX simulates things like how sounds travels across and under the war and other sounds. Just a excellent mod and absolutely necessary to get the full experience. Far depth charge disturbance mod. I have stopped using it as it makes things too easy even with multiple tweaks. I have one more version to test, hopefully will find the balance. For further details, will need to see the README. Yes, the submarines, especially in early war, were hampered by bureaucracy and pre war mindset. Admiral Ernest King was responsible for the disaster during Drumbeat, refusing to implement convoys, because British suggested it and he hated the Brits, said convoys was "defensive." Midway for submarines, they were deployed in manner in which subs were in such situation, problem was they were running submerged so in that large area, unlikely to contact anything being essentially a slightly mobile minefield. Midway was before subs had SJ surface search radar and some did not had SD air search radar yet either. Then Nautilus did find the carriers, but faulty torpedoes prevented sub from being effective. I am still amazed at the torpedo scandal myself, but not shocked. Nature of bureaucracy and "stuffy" institutions with hierarchies which enforce a institutionalized system where one mistake and your career is essentially over, which is sadly prevalent in today's Navy. This fosters a ethos of "cover your ass" instead of okay I messed up, lets solve the problem. Did you know Chester W. Nimitz, who would become our best Admiral, grounded a vessel when a young Officer? In todays Navy and even the peacetime Navy of the 1930's and early 40's, he would have never made it up the ranks unless had family connections etc. Luckily he was a young officer before that doltish mentality really took hold. Remember the F-14 pilot who shot down a Air Force plane during a training exercise? Sure, he never flew Navy aircraft again but still went on to become a Admiral, but his father was a Admiral. While I am glad his career was not entirely over, if he had not had the connection, he would have never made it very far if not booted out of the service entirely) is such that those at the top are removed from realities of the men on the front line. Naval Bureau of Ordnance was a fairly prestigious shore assignment in the pre war years and by time war came around, several high ranking Admirals who had served shore duty assigned to BurOrd were now in command and admitting torpedoes were faulty, would be admitting they did something wrong. Germans solved their torpedo problems in roughly 6 weeks and disciplined the officers responsible, even executing a couple if I recall. Now, that is a bit much (very German though lol) |
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04-21-22, 01:30 PM | #13 | |
Seaman
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I dowloaded it and will get space on my computer for a new sh4 install. I will make sure to read the read me. To get back to you on the german side of torpedo malfunctions, it took much longer than 6 weeks. The impact detonator wasnt 'fixed' until july 1940 when they captured a british submarine and just 'borrowed' their impact detonator. This marks the beginning of the happy time. Malfunctions were reported already in september 1939, including with the famous scapa flow raid that sunk the royal oak. Out of the first 5 torpedo fired at stationary target only 1 detonated and it was so minimal the crew went back to sleep. Until he reloaded and fired another salvo of 4. The magnetic detonator wasnt fixed until 1942 as they just switched to impact and where mostly satisfied now that they werent 'fighting with wooden swords' anymore. The execution is allegedly a myth, here is a passage from a great read on the matter: In December 1941 the verdicts were delivered. Vice Admiral Götting was acquitted of all charges, while the other three defendants were sentenced to between two to four years imprisonment, but this was later adjusted to probation which in turn was eventually forgotten about as the war progressed.223In practice, the three defendants endured six months imprisonment each, after which time Schreiber and Rothemund were both allowed to return to armaments work.224 It should also be mentioned that Ronald Spector in his bookAt War at Sea: Sailors and Naval Combat in the Twentieth Century, says that death sentences were actually handed out, citing Hessler’sThe U-Boat War in the Atlanticas his source, which upon further examination actually fails to mention any such thing. Unless Spector is referring to a different edition that is not mentioned or known, the reason’s for his assertion are unknown, and are most assuredly not true. Still more efficient than the american side of things, especially with donitz taking the matter very seriously almost from the get go. Here is the source: https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthe...99&context=etd |
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