Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ i can only say that i understand Russia with its security concerns regarding the eastward expansion of NATO, but i also understand that every nation/state should be able to freely choose which treaty it wants to join.

76 years after WW2 and 32 years after the end of the Soviet union i find it rather dumb and arrogant how the two main superpowers still dictate everything regarding politics and borders in Europe. Looks the latter is still under occupation.

For now there seems to be no other way, but this policy and attitude has to change soon.
What about a neutral and nuclear-armed Europe.

What's interesting here is how the countries who received the letter interprets it.
In Denmark some Professor said the letter smell like an opening from Putin.
While the Swedish Minister of foreign Affairs said - The letter indicate that Putin has never stopped from....Forgot the rest but it was in a negative way.

Wonder how Germany interprets this letter.

Edit
Have read the answer from the Danish MoD.
She says that Putins behavior is insane
End edit

Markus

[Skybird]

It has been American excuse since long that those promises back then were made in spoken format only, not fixed in writing and formalized. That is true. Still, verbal assurances were given, American opposite claims are not true. These have been confirmed by time witnesses of the events and from several countries. A promise is not a treaty, still you get judged by your words, and if you get found to put your deeds not where your mouth was, distrust is the logcial consequence. The russians were naive back then. And certain Westerners - American and NATO diplomats and capitalist predators alike - made unrestrained use and abuse of that.

People like "strong tough bullies of the block", for whom, male friendships and unwritten verbal arrangements between the strong chieftains, stomping feet and fists slammed on tables, count more than diplomatic habits and subtelties that should reflect the claimed superiority of a civilization, rate such abuses as personal insults. Formally, the US is right, there is no written treaty. Just that this does not count for defining the Russian view of things. Technically, the Russians are right. They were given a certain promise, and the promise was broken. Neither forgotten, nor forgiven. And so we are where we are today.

The West thought the russians were done and would just play ball according to Western rules, would get over it. One even thought for some years that Russia sooner or later would join NATO, that much Russia was assumed to be done. Already back then I just shook my head about such immense foolishness, and Western misperception of the Russian sentiment.

We showed them that we cannot be trusted. That simple it is. And today they pay tribute to these lessons. Their reply: "We must become strong and indispensable again as the Sovjet Union was, its the only way to survive amongst wolves - you must become the biggest wolve yourself".

There is another reason. Russia has no tech sector worth to be exported, it only has ressources to export - and immense military might. It deals the cards that it has.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It has been American excuse since long that those promises back then were made in spoken format only, not fixed in writing and formalized. That is true. Still, verbal assurances were given, American opposite claims are not true. These have been confirmed by time witnesses of the events and from several countries. A promise is not a treaty, still you get judged by your words, and if you get found to put your deeds not where your mouth was, distrust is the logcial consequence. The russians were naive back then. And certain Westerners - American and NATO diplomats and capitalist predators alike - made unrestrained use and abuse of that.

People like "strong tough bullies of the block", for whom, male friendships and unwritten verbal arrangements between the strong chieftains, stomping feet and fists slammed on tables, count more than diplomatic habits and subtelties that should reflect the claimed superiority of a civilization, rate such abuses as personal insults. Formally, the US is right, there is no written treaty. Just that this does not count for defining the Russian view of things. Technically, the Russians are right. They were given a certain promise, and the promise was broken. Neither forgotten, nor forgiven. And so we are where we are today.

The West thought the russians were done and would just play ball according to Western rules, would get over it. One even thought for some years that Russia sooner or later would join NATO, that much Russia was assumed to be done. Already back then I just shook my head about such immense foolishness, and Western misperception of the Russian sentiment.

We showed them that we cannot be trusted. That simple it is. And today they pay tribute to these lessons. Their reply: "We must become strong and indispensable again as the Sovjet Union was, its the only way to survive amongst wolves - you must become the biggest wolve yourself".

There is another reason. Russia has no tech sector worth to be exported, it only has ressources to export - and immense military might. It deals the cards that it has.

You might want read up on what is NATO and how it works and who everyone involved is and what nations they represent before you take up Putin’s narrative about U.S. broken promises. It’s not any one country, NATO is a by invitation only alliance, it doesn’t invade with tanks and troops and occupy other countries.

“Soviet leaders were still highly confident that the Warsaw Pact was going to survive.”

And if the East Europeans sought to leave the Warsaw Pact, didn’t that suggest to the Soviet leadership that they might eventually want to join NATO? Gorbachev later said that this simply was not an issue at the time. “The topic of ‘NATO expansion,’” he told an interviewer in 2014, “was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991.” But it was not true that “not a single Eastern European country raised the issue” of joining NATO during that period. The idea was in fact broached by East European leaders in meetings with Deputy Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger in late February 1990, just days after the Baker assurances had been given; one of them, Hungary’s foreign minister Gyula Horn, actually made public comments in this vein at the time. The East Europeans, to be sure, did not press this issue too vociferously. They, like everyone else, were worried that moving ahead too quickly might undermine Gorbachev’s position within the Soviet leadership, and that if he fell everything might be lost. But it was clear enough what they had in mind. As Kohl told President Bush in May, the Soviet leader had “big problems. His East European allies say they want to be in NATO.”

Warsaw Pact countries fled the scene, seems they wanted to join NATO. NATO doesn’t roll in with T-34’s and occupy the town square of countries. It sends out invitations. What were we supposed to do? Tell them you need to stay in the Warsaw Pact and within Putin’s infuence? We spent a lot of money, time, effort and spilled a lot blood sweat & tears tearing down that iron curtain and made a place where Eastern Europe can be a part of something of what I think is a helluva lot better than what Putin has to offer. Russia don’t like it? Well that’s just too damn bad.

Here’s the link again highly suggested it as well as others links within are read.’

https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/...rg/cv/1990.pdf

[astvitaliy1982]

Не получается открыть ссылку(((

[Rockstar]

I checked it again and it worked for me. Just a guess, it is a .pdf so maybe you need pdf file reader or, use a VPN Other than that I don’t know why you couldn’t open it.

[mapuc]

Looks like we are very close to war in Europe

More evidence has emerged of a steady build-up of Russian military equipment and deployments around Ukraine, with new satellite images revealing a further expansion of the military presence at multiple locations in Belarus, Crimea and western Russia.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/02/e...ntl/index.html

Markus

[mapuc]

I did not foresee this- I thought Putin would get some kind of approval of his foreign politics towards Ukraine.

How far will this friendship between these two country go ? Have Putin got a carte blanche to invade Ukraine ? Will China support Russia if NATO support Ukraine ?

The talks, which the Kremlin said were "very warm", were held ahead of the Games opening ceremony. It was the first time the leaders have met face-to-face since the start of the pandemic.

"Friendship between [Russia and China] has no limits, there are no 'forbidden' areas of cooperation,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60257080

Markus

[Rockstar]

I don’t know, Military Expansion and especially war places a huge burden on the Russian economy and really don’t think Russians are up for it so close to home. Plus we’re going after Putin’s backers where it hurts the most, their pocket book. I bet Putin will catch a cold and disappear before a war starts.

Then again

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I did not foresee this- I thought Putin would get some kind of approval of his foreign politics towards Ukraine.

How far will this friendship between these two country go ? Have Putin got a carte blanche to invade Ukraine ? Will China support Russia if NATO support Ukraine ?



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60257080

Markus

"Villains of all countries- unite! The opportunity is more favorable than ever, the West is weaker than ever, France, Great Britain, America are all busy with themselves and their internal problems, Germany simply refuses to be present - use the opportunities! If not now - when then...?"

I think that simple indeed is why Putin does what he does. The opportunity is there, and it is better than it ever was, and ever will be again. Also, Putin and many Russians reject the idea of Ukrainians and Russians being different tribes, different people. The Ukraine for them is Russia anyway. Odeassa is a Russian holiday ressort.

[Onkel Neal]

But although Putin missed the euphoria of the ’80s, he certainly took full part in the orgy of greed that gripped Russia in the ’90s. Having weathered the trauma of the Berlin Wall, Putin returned to the Soviet Union and joined his former colleagues in a massive looting of the Soviet state. With the assistance of Russian organized crime as well as the amoral international offshore-money-laundering industry, some of the former Soviet nomenklatura stole assets, took the money out of the country, hid it abroad, and then brought the cash back and used it to buy more assets. Wealth accumulated; a power struggle followed. Some of the original oligarchs landed in prison or exile. Eventually Putin wound up as the top billionaire among all the other billionaires—or at least the one who controls the secret police.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ocracy/621465/

Hitler's wet dream, is alive in Russia.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ocracy/621465/

Yes, many at the top of the Russian establishment are about plundering their own country, and their foreign political pose expresses that they do not want to be called out for it: then they argue with anti-Russian sentiments and Russophobia. The one thing that Putin did was that he set up a red line for oligarchs where they better had to stop in their greed: when they started to become a threat to the state, which is Putin himself, so to speak. Then the state - Putin - cracked down mercilessly on them.



I dont know if he is bluffing over the Ukraine. But if it is a bluff, then it is the most convincing bluff I have ever seen. Stepping back from it would be an enormous loss of face, and that is what makes the situation so sobering. He cannot pull back, it seems, without making a joke of himself, and not being taken serious anymore. And that is what really itches him. He mjust get a trophy of any sort that he can present and say: "Look, this is what I achieved, this is why it was worth it." If he fails in this, he will no longer be taken serious. A lame bear, so to speak.

[Jeff-Groves]

Hell. Putin could finish the War Games then pull the Troops back as he 'says' he plans to.
Then he could justifiably point fingers at the Warmongering Westerners!
With a stern face he could then say "SEE! I TOLD YOU SO!"

That would be a MAJOR feather in his Cap.

[mapuc]

This I know:
If Russia and China create a military alliance NATO is not strong enough to take on them.

Secondly I would love to read/know exactly what they have agreed on when it comes to NATO and Ukraine.

Markus

[ET2SN]

China needs to tread lightly with Europe.
Its hard to sell products to nations that hate your guts.

One thing to remember about NATO: It was and is a nice insurance policy to countries that got tired of having to rebuild their roads, cities, and adult population every twenty years.

Never mind who won, there's a reason why most European cities had to be rebuilt in the 1950's.

[Jimbuna]

Russia has assembled about 70% of the military capability needed for a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in the coming weeks, US officials say.

The ground is expected to freeze and harden from mid-February, enabling Moscow to bring in more heavy equipment, the unnamed officials said.

Russia is said to have more than 100,000 troops near Ukraine's borders but denies planning to attack.

The US officials did not provide evidence for their assessment.

They said the information was based on intelligence but that they were unable to give details due to its sensitivity, US media report.

The officials also said they did not know if Russian President Vladimir Putin had decided to take such a step, adding that a diplomatic solution was still possible. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60276342