AUKUS

Jimbuna · 09-20-21, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

NATO without the US and without the UK?

Well, at least the Swiss army will be CO2 neutral by 2050, we should bring them in to take the anglosaxons' part. And German pregnant recruits can drive around in the PUMA without needing to fear inhaling aerosols putting their fetus at risk.

I mean we cannot even defend our borders against unarmed mass migration getting pushed in by criminals, Belarus and Turkey. But we think we must choose the Far East Pacific, Afghanistan and Mali as our playfields...?

Seeing is believing. until then, I wait. And I don't hold my breath.

Post of the Year material

Catfish · 09-20-21, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Post of the Year material

When it come to being dumbest, yes

mapuc · 09-20-21, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

When it come to being dumbest, yes

???? Why should Skybirds comment be the dumbest ????

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Markus

Catfish · 09-20-21, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.
Markus

Russia cannot afford a war, not now or in the next 20 years.
But theoretically what do you think would have happened in the Trump years IF Russia had taken action against Europe? Let's say just some smaller parts, and waiting again for the next opportunity?

Since Russia and China ARE threats it is indeed high time to do something also in Europe, just NATO will not do.

On the other hand, as posted before, why should Australia not buy or lease russian submarines like India does? Wouldn't THAT be something

mapuc · 09-20-21, 02:52 PM

Since the beginning of the 90's Europe has disarmed a lot. In Denmark and in Sweden many airfields have been shut down, harbour been closed, decrease in number of soldiers.

While Russia has, from what I remember, been rearmed it's military since end of the 90's.

Russia is a lot stronger today than it was in the middle of the 90's.

Back to discussing buying subs from USA and not France.

I would if I was from France felt I had been spit on.
But I'm not, so my feelings in this is neutral.

Markus

Catfish · 09-20-21, 03:05 PM

So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?

mapuc · 09-20-21, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?

I don't know to be honest. I hope it wouldn't come so far that Putin think he has a chance to invade and occupy East Europe incl. Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Because I fear that NATO's only response would be nukes.

Markus

Exocet25fr · 09-20-21, 04:37 PM

Mapuc wrote:

HTML Code:

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!

Catfish · 09-20-21, 02:34 PM

Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!"
On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands.
At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests.
But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one.
Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive.
How about making up your mind? There is no goal or target that can be achieved if Europe goes on like before in this deteriorating transatlantic relationship.

Sykybird can make fun all he wants about lacking the will and tenacity, there are enough people who will do this job, just not possible in the ridiculous environment in which "allies" do not ask other "allies" acting alone without any information beforehand; and then some oh so special ally pretend you can have your cake and eat it. I am still astonished that the UK does not realize how it has been snubbed by the US but hey, special reationship. Keep on dreaming.

re Aukus, papers called a contract about a submarine deal have been signed between Australia and France.
"contract, signed in 2016 with French company DCNS (now known as Naval Group) to build 12 Barracuda submarines for Australia"
What does anyone think what happened in those five years? Does anyone think France gets the money and time back, are those boats in production? What happens to them?

Skybird · 09-20-21, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!"
On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands.
At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests.
But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one.
Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive.

etc etc etc

Ach Catfish... If only I could recognise myself in your claims on what I should have said, meant, implied. But I cannot, and so...

09-20-21, 02:52 PM	#5
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,052 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Since the beginning of the 90's Europe has disarmed a lot. In Denmark and in Sweden many airfields have been shut down, harbour been closed, decrease in number of soldiers. While Russia has, from what I remember, been rearmed it's military since end of the 90's. Russia is a lot stronger today than it was in the middle of the 90's. Back to discussing buying subs from USA and not France. I would if I was from France felt I had been spit on. But I'm not, so my feelings in this is neutral. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

09-20-21, 03:05 PM	#6
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,903 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	So let's make it simple: If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe? __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

09-20-21, 04:37 PM	#8
Exocet25fr Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris/France Posts: 779 Downloads: 254 Uploads: 0	Mapuc wrote: HTML Code: Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe. Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor! __________________ \"Le Triomphant\" listens you !

09-20-21, 02:34 PM	#9
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,903 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries. If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!" On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands. At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests. But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one. Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive. How about making up your mind? There is no goal or target that can be achieved if Europe goes on like before in this deteriorating transatlantic relationship. Sykybird can make fun all he wants about lacking the will and tenacity, there are enough people who will do this job, just not possible in the ridiculous environment in which "allies" do not ask other "allies" acting alone without any information beforehand; and then some oh so special ally pretend you can have your cake and eat it. I am still astonished that the UK does not realize how it has been snubbed by the US but hey, special reationship. Keep on dreaming. re Aukus, papers called a contract about a submarine deal have been signed between Australia and France. "contract, signed in 2016 with French company DCNS (now known as Naval Group) to build 12 Barracuda submarines for Australia" What does anyone think what happened in those five years? Does anyone think France gets the money and time back, are those boats in production? What happens to them? __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.