Other Weapons Mod

[captinjoehenry]

As it is I am not really well equipped to make a custom sub from text file but I can go and make a whole bunch of other real world torpedoes, cruise missiles and other sub launched weapons that are true to life if anyone wants to use them.

So if there is some interest in this I am happy to begin making the text docs for various weapons and I'll be happy to take requests for it.

[Delgard]

I had a lot of trouble finding water slugs in the bilges for testing the torpedo tubes. Maybe making them would be helpful.

[MadMike]

What's the max explosive power for a weapon warhead? Curious, since an ASROC with a W44 nuclear warhead had a 10 kiloton yield which equals 10,000 tons of TNT (or 20,000,000 pounds TNT or 9,090,909 kg TNT).
I wonder if that could be tested on an ASTOR torpedo (Mk 45); not sure it's modeled in game but a Mk 37 or Mk 48 could probably work.
The Mk 45 had an anti-circular run feature, speed of 40 knots, and range of 12,000 yds.
The Swordfish nuclear test of 10 Kt (ASROC proof test) showed that a submerged sub could survive 4500 yds from the burst point (at periscope depth).

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by MadMike

What's the max explosive power for a weapon warhead? Curious, since an ASROC with a W44 nuclear warhead had a 10 kiloton yield which equals 10,000 tons of TNT (or 20,000,000 pounds TNT or 9,090,909 kg TNT).
I wonder if that could be tested on an ASTOR torpedo (Mk 45); not sure it's modeled in game but a Mk 37 or Mk 48 could probably work.
The Mk 45 had an anti-circular run feature, speed of 40 knots, and range of 12,000 yds.
The Swordfish nuclear test of 10 Kt (ASROC proof test) showed that a submerged sub could survive 4500 yds from the burst point (at periscope depth).

Its been attempted. Torpedoes don't have a blast radius in this game, so you can set the damage as high as you'd like, and it will be dealt, but only to whatever it hits. I've made what amounts to a Mk 45 simulator in my OAS mod. The Mk 45 had no terminal guidance/ homing, it had gyros for the initial run setting and wire-guidance for further steering and detonation settings, but it had to be controlled through its whole run.

As far as nuclear stuff goes, in theory you could probably make a nuclear air-dropped depth charge like a Lulu as the air-dropped weapon does have a configurable blast radius, but doing stuff like that you can see why the dev's thought that was a road best not to go down.

You're playing a mission, you think you're quiet, but all the sudden instead of a torpedo or a sonobuoy they get a russian-lulu followed a few seconds later by a massive pressure wave that completely rupture your boat. Game over, thanks for playing.

[shipkiller1]

Why would you want to introduce Nuclear Weapons, into the game?

No one in their right mind would have launched a MK-45 anyway, and they would have been VERY hesitant to launch a SubRoc. The MK-45 was MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. You both die. With a SubRoc you only had a 50% chance to die...

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

Why would you want to introduce Nuclear Weapons, into the game?

No one in their right mind would have launched a MK-45 anyway, and they would have been VERY hesitant to launch a SubRoc. The MK-45 was MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. You both die. With a SubRoc you only had a 50% chance to die...

You could say the same thing about any nuclear weapon. The Mk 45 was produced in a hurry once it became apparent how disadvantaged the Mk 37 was, but I'd look at both ASTOR and SUBROC as being intended mostly as anti-boomer weapons.

Its 1966 and you're behind a Yankee which suddenly heads up to launch-depth and starts opening his missile tubes. Are you going to count on one or even a series of Mk 37s (which can just barely catch him, maybe) to do the job? I say he'd be getting nuked, even at the cost of the whole boat and crew, if that puts his 16 SLBMs at the bottom and keeps the eastern seaboard from becoming a radioactive wasteland you're still winning.

For SUBROC, it was developed for long range time critical targets. Back to said Yankee, if you've got him at say 25-30,000 yards off, how many missiles can he get off while you try to get into range for a torpedo shot? None if you drop a SUBROC on him.

As crazy as these weapons seem, the real reasoning behind them was to keep everybody honest, with their fingers well away from the red button. I'd like to see them simulated if only to take up some space in the torpedo room (most attack subs carried 2-4 for most of the Cold War as far as I know).

[shipkiller1]

You are also assuming the CO had nuclear release authority, which in all actuality he would not until the big missiles are already flying...

When I went to Fire Control 'C' school (1980) and learned how to fix the 'Leveling computer' (used for Subroc) all of the older FT's stated that in no uncertain terms that NO one would launch one of these...

Also, based on the sonar technology of the time (your time frame 1966) you most likely would not detect an SSBN at 30K+ and even if you did, you could not resolve the range down to where the CEP was sufficient to destroy the contact. At that range, you definitely would not know if he was in a launch cycle.

When President Bush pulled all the tactical nukes out of the fleet, we were all doing hand stands... thank god they were going away... Not because of what they represented but for all the crazy rules/requirements of just having them on board. They were a nightmare.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

You are also assuming the CO had nuclear release authority, which in all actuality he would not until the big missiles are already flying...

When I went to Fire Control 'C' school (1980) and learned how to fix the 'Leveling computer' (used for Subroc) all of the older FT's stated that in no uncertain terms that NO one would launch one of these...

Also, based on the sonar technology of the time (your time frame 1966) you most likely would not detect an SSBN at 30K+ and even if you did, you could not resolve the range down to where the CEP was sufficient to destroy the contact. At that range, you definitely would not know if he was in a launch cycle.

When President Bush pulled all the tactical nukes out of the fleet, we were all doing hand stands... thank god they were going away... Not because of what they represented but for all the crazy rules/requirements of just having them on board. They were a nightmare.

No doubt they were, but they were still carried very frequently from 1965 until the late 80s. Insanity and impracticality is nothing new for nuclear weapons. Hell, into the 70s they had the BOMARC and Genie anti-air weapons which would have been detonated in the air over North America in hopes of downing Soviet bomber formations!

[shipkiller1]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

No doubt they were, but they were still carried very frequently from 1965 until the late 80s. Insanity and impracticality is nothing new for nuclear weapons. Hell, into the 70s they had the BOMARC and Genie anti-air weapons which would have been detonated in the air over North America in hopes of downing Soviet bomber formations!

The MK-45's were out of the fleet by 1980. Subroc's (UUM-44) were out of the fleet by the middle/late 1980's.
Only 637's and first flight 688's (688-699) could employ the Subroc but lost the capability when converted to MK-117 or CCS MK-1 fire control systems. Second flight and above (SSN-700 +) were built with the newer FCS.
Subrocs were in all actuality a dead weapons system by 1980.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

The MK-45's were out of the fleet by 1980. Subroc's (UUM-44) were out of the fleet by the middle/late 1980's.
Only 637's and first flight 688's (688-699) could employ the Subroc but lost the capability when converted to MK-117 or CCS MK-1 fire control systems. Second flight and above (SSN-700 +) were built with the newer FCS.
Subrocs were in all actuality a dead weapons system by 1980.

According to what I've read the Mk45s were gone by 1976 but may have lingered on in storage for a few years. They weren't needed or wanted once the Mk 48 was in service. The 45s were supposed to be converted to the conventional "Freedom Torpedo" and were going to be purchased by Turkey and possibly Iran (along with USS Trout) but this fell through and as far as I know went nowhere.

In 1983, Congress mandated that the Mk 117 FCS be modified to maintain compatibility with SUBROC and remaining weapons were kept in active service until 1988, and removed from inventory in 1990. At the same time they were trying to get Sea Lance approved as its replacement (there would have been a nuclear-armed UUM-125A Sea Lance as well as the B version with the Mk 50 torpedo).

Edit: Didn't the 594 boats also have SUBROC capability? I know a lot of the early testing on it was done initially with Thresher and then with Barb IIRC, and they all had the Mk 113 FC.

[shipkiller1]

Yes, 594's did. I always forget those boats.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

Yes, 594's did. I always forget those boats.

Mind if I pick your brain on some of this stuff? I'm trying to get this right for my mod but for some of these specifics (mainly equipment, what class of sub had what sonar and some torpedo questions) and so far I haven't had any luck with sources.

[MadMike]

We exercised continually in SAC and Europe (NATO) with nuclear weapons, for good reason (I won't go into release procedures, which certainly does not involve "pushing a red button"). The Soviets were ready to use nuclear weapons on major European cities at the start of a conflict, as shown in declassified CIA files of offensive Soviet and Warsaw Pact battle plans. With systems like Pershing, which could hit Soviet targets in six minutes, it gives a potential aggressor something to think about.
As for operations like REFORGER, the USSR even had SLBM's allocated to destroy convoys.
Given our intel, which was very good, we had a pretty good notice of impending Soviet/Warsaw Pact exercises- the stories about Able Archer '83 are complete nonsense; during SAC Global Shield exercises we generated thousands of weapons (which was announced previously in the media). The Soviets had agents in place, and noted our movements and alert notifications (US and overseas). They also exercised in the Warsaw Treaty Organization with tactical nuclear weapons in the DDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Bulgaria.
That being said, our main threat was from special operations forces like Spetsnaz or DDR Fallschirmjager, who would begin operations just prior to the outbreak of war.

Yours, Mike

USAFE veteran, 1988-1992.

[beanodublin]

Is there anyway of getting a antisub missile like in Red Storm Riseing

[LeopardDriver]

Originally Posted by beanodublin

Is there anyway of getting a antisub missile like in Red Storm Riseing

Sure, we already made that one. Should be in the Subs and more mod:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=5234

If nothing works, I can send you the data later.