Things you like about CW, Things you don't like.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I agree, but two things.

First, you could have easily known this in advance.
Second, a new UI is incoming, adding the possibility to order course, speed and depth, as you know it from submarine simulations.

The title was released unfinished - but the team is really working hard on it.

It's not un-finished. This is not a Sub stations simulator, it's a sub commander simulator. As a captain, you have crew that does all the other stuff for you. Your job is not to sit in front of the waterfall or plot TMA on a chart. The lack of a helm command is an oversight but it's being addressed.

Originally Posted by Wiz33

It's not un-finished. This is not a Sub stations simulator, it's a sub commander simulator. As a captain, you have crew that does all the other stuff for you. Your job is not to sit in front of the waterfall or plot TMA on a chart. The lack of a helm command is an oversight but it's being addressed.

Not unfinished?
I am the Captain?
Please, spare me these mantra-like excuses.

If I am the Captain, why must I drive the boat manually?
If I have a crew - where are their voices, their feedback I need so badly as CO?

Right, not there yet, hence: Unfinished.


Edit:

Originally Posted by Wiz33

Too bad you're missing out on a great sub sim (a true sub commander operation sim vs a sub stations operator sim like all the SH,688,DW junk).

Really? "Junk"?
"True" sub commander sim?

Go play Fast Attack if you want to catch a glimpse of what that means in the realms of PC simulations. There's nothing better than that when it comes to "be in command!" feeling.
Trashing these established simulations shows where you're coming from, really.
Also, in DW, for example, you can have your crew manage every station automatically, "being the Captain".

So much for your implication that this "junk game" forces you to stare on some waterfall.
It doesn't.

Meanwhile in CW, the player is kept busy by flying his own boat.
Ridiculous.

CW gives you the feeling of being a robot-sub with boosted capabilities fighting dumb enemies that ground themselves or go beyond crush depth while pinging like maniacs.

No one mentioned stations. So don't even try that straw-man.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Not unfinished?
I am the Captain?
Please, spare me these mantra-like excuses.

If I am the Captain, why must I drive the boat manually?
If I have a crew - where are their voices, their feedback I need so badly as CO?

Right, not there yet, hence: Unfinished.


Edit:

Really? "Junk"?
"True" sub commander sim?

Go play Fast Attack if you want to catch a glimpse of what that means in the realms of PC simulations. There's nothing better than that when it comes to "be in command!" feeling.
Trashing these established simulations shows where you're coming from, really.
Also, in DW, for example, you can have your crew manage every station automatically, "being the Captain".

So much for your implication that this "junk game" forces you to stare on some waterfall.
It doesn't.

Meanwhile in CW, the player is kept busy by flying his own boat.
Ridiculous.

CW gives you the feeling of being a robot-sub with boosted capabilities fighting dumb enemies that ground themselves or go beyond crush depth while pinging like maniacs.

No one mentioned stations. So don't even try that straw-man.

I was there at the dawn of the PC age. I was on the beta team for North Atlantic 86, my name is the the original Harpoon strategy guide and I've played every modern military sim to death. and I do call some of them junk. boosted capabilities my ass. now. those so call automatic crew operation in DW is just junk as none of them would have made it on a real US sub.

Originally Posted by Wiz33

I was there at the dawn of the PC age. I was on the beta team for North Atlantic 86, my name is the the original Harpoon strategy guide and I've played every modern military sim to death. and I do call some of them junk. boosted capabilities my ass. now. those so call automatic crew operation in DW is just junk as none of them would have made it on a real US sub.

So what does you being the self-proclaimed Godfather of PC simulations have to do with anything?
Will it somehow boost your authority?
Will your hollow arguments suddenly fill with reason?
No.

So far you simply bashed DW and the other titles, without giving reasonable examples, and your last sentence is nothing but delusional. What does that even mean, "none of them would have made it on a real US sub."?
At least the lingo and procedures are simulated - not like in CW, where your crew consists of mutes!
It's like you're bashing Project Cars in terms of physics, and than claim that Super Mario Cart is the hottest stuff around.
Hilarious.

If you are so well-versed in the simulation genre, you sure did play Fast Attack, a title developed (in lead) by a former 688 skipper, and a game the Navy wasn't too happy about due to its authentic nature.
I hoped CW would have at least some feeling and features from FA, like announced/implied, but I am still looking for it. Did you find something?
Enlighten me.

So, all these games are "junk" (because reasons, I assume), but CW is somehow "it"?
Sorry what?
And what do you mean, boosted capabilities your beep?
Are you, the Godfather of the naval simulation genre himself, saying that the boats in CW behave reasonable and authentic?
If a Los Angeles class submarine would be that ridiculously agile, it would not even need counter-measures... what for, if you have fail-safe "knuckles" that shake off every torpedo 100% of the time in this 1:1 simulation that probably breaks OPSEC?

You start to sound like a shill, to be honest.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

So what does you being the self-proclaimed Godfather of PC simulations have to do with anything?
Will it somehow boost your authority?
Will your hollow arguments suddenly fill with reason?
No.

So far you simply bashed DW and the other titles, without giving reasonable examples, and your last sentence is nothing but delusional. What does that even mean, "none of them would have made it on a real US sub."?
At least the lingo and procedures are simulated - not like in CW, where your crew consists of mutes!
It's like you're bashing Project Cars in terms of physics, and than claim that Super Mario Cart is the hottest stuff around.
Hilarious.

If you are so well-versed in the simulation genre, you sure did play Fast Attack, a title developed (in lead) by a former 688 skipper, and a game the Navy wasn't too happy about due to its authentic nature.
I hoped CW would have at least some feeling and features from FA, like announced/implied, but I am still looking for it. Did you find something?
Enlighten me.

So, all these games are "junk" (because reasons, I assume), but CW is somehow "it"?
Sorry what?
And what do you mean, boosted capabilities your beep?
Are you, the Godfather of the naval simulation genre himself, saying that the boats in CW behave reasonable and authentic?
If a Los Angeles class submarine would be that ridiculously agile, it would not even need counter-measures... what for, if you have fail-safe "knuckles" that shake off every torpedo 100% of the time in this 1:1 simulation that probably breaks OPSEC?

You start to sound like a shill, to be honest.

The point is that the all the essential info you need to play the game is complete. All the other stuff you mentioned is nice to have features that would would enhance the game but the game will work without them. The AI problem and small bugs are in every game at launch and just require minor fixed and AI tweak. Fighters in Harpoon and Fleet command miss more than hit at launch unless you personally take a hand in controlling them. The so call AI crew in DW takes forever to ID and do TMA on a contact unless you take a active hand when IRL your sonar tech and fire control team should be able to do it faster. Having to man every station to get anything done is boring.

Originally Posted by Wiz33

The point is that the all the essential info you need to play the game is complete.

[Shadow]

You're not being very fair, Nippelspanner: you'll acknowledge Dangerous Waters' automatic crewmen, but Cold Waters allegedly depicts "robot-subs" just because the voiceovers haven't been implemented yet? The implementation of crewmen is functionally the same in both cases.

As for direct control, it's been a point of contention in the community but the devs are working on an alternative navigation module which will allow players to give more general, "captain-like" commands. That said, a sub commander is well capable of giving precise rudder/planes/ballast commands, and KFG originally went for that because they felt it was more immersive. I for one prefer traditional subsim controls, but have come to appreciate the value of direct ones as well: it's particularly important when evading torpedoes, for instance. We'll have both options soon enough, and for that I'm immensely grateful.

At any rate, what constitutes an "unfinished" game? Is it reasonable to call Cold Waters unfinished just because it's lacking a couple of secondary features? Theoretically, perhaps, but in this age of extensive post-release development, all games which receive content updates (and DLC) after launch could be considered unfinished even if they were released in a complete-enough state.

So what'd be a finished game, then? One which has stopped receiving updates beyond bugfixes and balancing? Is that necessarily a positive trait? And is it a negative thing to have this very playable, enjoyable subsim for which its creators intend to produce more stuff for a while yet?

Truth is KFG could call CW finished today, because it's an arbitrary decision and save for bug-freedom, the game has all the features the devs intended it to have to be reasonably called complete. But ultimately we all benefit the longer Cold Waters remains "unfinished" and with upcoming content in the pipeline.

[PL_Harpoon]

Something to change the tone a little bit...

While I was testing my mod, I came across a hidden feature of sorts.

So, I was hunting down an amphibious strike force that was escorted by 3 warships, one of them being Sovremenny. So, I fired a single torpedo at him which did not sink him. But he was damaged and stopped moving so I left him there and turned my attention to transport ships and other escort.

After a while I came to see how he's going and noticed something interesting - the fire was spreading.



After a few more minutes it overwhelmed the ship, there was an explosion and the poor ship sunk.



What a nice surprise.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Something to change the tone a little bit...

While I was testing my mod, I came across a hidden feature of sorts.

So, I was hunting down an amphibious strike force that was escorted by 3 warships, one of them being Sovremenny. So, I fired a single torpedo at him which did not sink him. But he was damaged and stopped moving so I left him there and turned my attention to transport ships and other escort.

After a while I came to see how he's going and noticed something interesting - the fire was spreading.

After a few more minutes it overwhelmed the ship, there was an explosion and the poor ship sunk.

What a nice surprise.

Yea. Damage over time is modeled in this and ship will continue to take damage if they cannot get it under control. Happen to me in the Kirov mission, put 2 MK48 into it and it's still afloat and moving (although slowly) by the time I finished/evade the escort and was making another approach, then it sank on it's own.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Something to change the tone a little bit...

While I was testing my mod, I came across a hidden feature of sorts.

So, I was hunting down an amphibious strike force that was escorted by 3 warships, one of them being Sovremenny. So, I fired a single torpedo at him which did not sink him. But he was damaged and stopped moving so I left him there and turned my attention to transport ships and other escort.

After a while I came to see how he's going and noticed something interesting - the fire was spreading.

After a few more minutes it overwhelmed the ship, there was an explosion and the poor ship sunk.

What a nice surprise.

Yeah, I stumbled upon this too. I hit a convoy which scattered and I was chasing down surviving vessels and about 1 hour later suddenly a wreck showed up. The ship had finally sunk 2nd to fire or flooding. It was a great touch and KF did some nice finish there.