Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by ichso

Those tutorials are still too easy

Glad you like 'em! My aim is to make tutorials so easy my cat can do 'em. Actually my cat outshoots me every time. Your first reaction after putting one of my tutorials into practice should be "I was afraid of THIS?" That's why the advanced targeters rag me a bit about being too basic. I toss out every complication I can, plus irrelevant precision in calculation to arrive at successful manual targeting for the beginner. From that point it's easy to introduce more complexity and better technique.

Originally Posted by ichso

Since I used the Real Navigation mod in SH3 I was forced to track the movements of my own boat from the start of my map drawings on, too (because the mod removes all of the magically real time updated sub markes from all maps).
This makes the whole process quite more interesting. You can't just position yourself along the course line of your target anymore, you have to estimate in which direction you would have to travel for how long to get into the desired position and would also have to recheck your targets range and bearing constantly to become aware of errors in the process soon enough to adjust for them.
It was still a ery successful method using the fast 90 tactic. I'm still new to SH4 and got a bit confused by the TDC a bit.

That's where "Real Navigation" conflicts with real plotting. On your target plot, you could care less what your geographic position is, because you're always "here." And all target positions are plotted in relation to "here," wherever that is, as if we cared. What I'm getting at is that you WOULD know the relative positions of target track and your sub to the accuracy shown on the nav map. "Real Navigation" throws out the baby with the bathwater though, because relative plotting is lost along with geographic positioning. You're denying yourself information that would be available to a real sub crew. It's like piloting an airplane with a paper bag over your head. You can do it, and it's admirably difficult, but unless you're being taught instrument flying you're being a bit eccentric.

Originally Posted by ichso

When I feed the TDC with range, AoB and speed of the target but the PK is turned off, the gyro angle still gets calculated, right ?
The input in SH3 felt a bit more 'manual', or I just need more time getting used to the matter.

Yup, the TDC works just fine with the PK turned off, it just doesn't update the gyro angle with time. The PK tracks the actual motion of your submarine and the inputted motion of the target for a continuous update of gyro angles. When we use a constant bearing technique like Dick O'Kane or John P Cromwell, there is no need to track target motion. Our target is an empty spot in the ocean soon to be occupied by our hapless victim. With the vector analysis technique we can use the entire TDC for a paperweight!

Just take your time with the American TDC. It WILL make sense after all the mental short-circuits with the German TDC are broken and new connections can be made. Sounds like you're well on the way to figuring it out. Welcome to fleet boats, where the rules are just a bit different!

[ichso]

My point didn't was that your tutorial is bad or too easy, I just wanted to find a good starting sentence to introduce my point

That's where "Real Navigation" conflicts with real plotting. On your target plot, you could care less what your geographic position is, because you're always "here." And all target positions are plotted in relation to "here," wherever that is, as if we cared.

Yep, I know. I usually just make a mark at some empty spot of the map defining this as my position and start plotting target bearings and ranges from there as well as tracking my own movements from there on.
I can still do that, just grab another empty spot on the map instead of where my sub marker is. This came to my mind when I already had sent the last post, oops

Then again my first attack failed big time. I just wanted to do it as being used to from SH3 but the torpedo must have sailed happily into nowhere. Must have set some of the settings wrong where the TDC differs from the u-boat's one. I will take a closer look at the tutorials again to figure that out. Skipped some steps when watching the first time because it seemed very similiar to what I had read in the SH3 forums some time ago.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by ichso

My point didn't was that your tutorial is bad or too easy, I just wanted to find a good starting sentence to introduce my point



Yep, I know. I usually just make a mark at some empty spot of the map defining this as my position and start plotting target bearings and ranges from there as well as tracking my own movements from there on.
I can still do that, just grab another empty spot on the map instead of where my sub marker is. This came to my mind when I already had sent the last post, oops

Then again my first attack failed big time. I just wanted to do it as being used to from SH3 but the torpedo must have sailed happily into nowhere. Must have set some of the settings wrong where the TDC differs from the u-boat's one. I will take a closer look at the tutorials again to figure that out. Skipped some steps when watching the first time because it seemed very similiar to what I had read in the SH3 forums some time ago.

Dick O'Kane not only seems similar, it is entirely based on Fast-90. I was innocently speaking with gutted and aaronblood, who both hailed from U-Boat land, and searching for a way to execute a right angle constant bearing attack with the same geometry as the Fast-90.

I had quit SH3 before I learned manual targeting there because it ate a couple of careers that I had invested a couple of weeks into. I was a bit miffed and then had the opportunity to pick up a copy of SH4 at a good price. It NEVER forgot my career and I hadn't gone back. After talking with aaronblood and gutted I jumped back into a U-Boat long enough to learn Fast-90 and then started searching for ways to overcome the fleet boat's lack of direct link between TDC and periscope.

The result was the Dick O'Kane method, a plausibly historical method developed independently of reality. A real fleet boat could have managed an attack exactly like it. It's safe to say that the sugar boats had little choice but to do something very like the Dick O'Kane attack. It does a very good job at highlighting the difference between firing an American and a German torpedo. Dick O'Kane/Fast-90 is the best way to manage the transition between Fleet boat and U-Boat simply because so much of Fast-90 feels familiar to fleet boaters and so much of Dick O'Kane feels familiar to U-Boaters.

Similarly, John P Cromwell could be adapted to a Fast-45 U-Boat attack that I might just work up since it's been a while since I wrote a U-Boat tutorial and I love to make those to tweak those people who like to try to paint me as a U-Boat hating fleet boat fanboi. I can see the whole attack in my head right now. It's pretty elegant and no calculating AoB will be necessary.

Just doing my part to encourage amity between American and German target killers.:rotfl:

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Similarly, John P Cromwell could be adapted to a Fast-45 U-Boat attack that I might just work up...

What you call "Fast-45" was addressed in the original "Fast-90" documentation as "Advanced Fast-90" and it applied to any approach angle from 0 to 180.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

What you call "Fast-45" was addressed in the original "Fast-90" documentation as "Advanced Fast-90" and it applied to any approach angle from 0 to 180.

Oh, I would do my customary oversimplification hatchet job and reduce it to a "wham bam thank you ma'am" short list of steps without all Wazoo's theory and precision.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Oh, I would do my customary oversimplification hatchet job and reduce it to a "wham bam thank you ma'am" short list of steps without all Wazoo's theory and precision.

Have you ever tried Fast-90 in Uboat missions? Not sure how much more you could actually simplify it. ...barring possibly not using the TDC.

1. Aim scope wire on 90° beam to target TC (regardless of your approach angle)
2. Set AoB at either 90°P or 90°S and lock TDC.

Then fire when ready...

[Rockin Robbins]

Oh you've got the instructions, all right. But just like Wazoo's, nobody knows what they are. My aim is that when I get done beginners understand and use the technique. I don't bring any special knowledge to the process at all, and anyone who thinks I do is mistaken. I specialize in instruction and techniques for beginners in manual targeting. What I bring is an ability to communicate to beginners at a level where they understand what to do and understand the process well enough to reason for themselves that my instructions are valid. THEN they can introduce wrinkles of their own, refine the process for more precision, adapt for angles other than 45º and 90º, and whatever else. But that's more advanced stuff. I'm building confidence that they are capable of manual targeting. Only confidence allows you to go forward and perfect your skill.

I am more a translator than a theoretician. OK, I'm a cheerleader too. My stock in trade is language, not the science behind the attack techniques. That's YOUR specialty and without you and several others I would have done NONE of this.