Dead?

[makman94]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

hello there TDW,

...but as you can see they continue releasing their products with all these 'locks'.
why do you believe is happening this ? becuase , i think that they are smart enough too to know that it is just a matter of one day (in most cases) to get rid of them (in the case of sh5 took half of a day for the SKIDROW)

these 'locks' reminds me the various ...antivirus programmes.
they do absolutelly nothing than 'warning you' but ...,always, there is a 'virus' that will ...pass. this is called ''progress'' you may say (and you are right), but i have start thinking that it is the same companies ,which are creating the 'ativirus' programmes, that are creating the new 'viruses' too ...

back to cases of the various 'locks' ....why you think they still continue selling 'locked' games as they know that next day will be not?

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by makman94

hello there TDW,

...but as you can see they continue releasing their products with all these 'locks'.
why do you believe is happening this ? becuase , i think that they are smart enough too to know that it is just a matter of one day (in most cases) to get rid of them (in the case of sh5 took half of a day for the SKIDROW)

these 'locks' reminds me the various ...antivirus programmes.
they do absolutelly nothing than 'warning you' but ...,always, there is a 'virus' that will ...pass. this is called ''progress'' you may say (and you are right), but i have start thinking that it is the same companies ,which are creating the 'ativirus' programmes, that are creating the new 'viruses' too ...

back to cases of the various 'locks' ....why you think they still continue selling 'locked' games as they know that next day will be not?

same thing why people put locks on doors and windows. Majority of the people won't mess with it if it has a lock on it

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Let this be a lesson to other game makers: we are not going to put up with pay to play or microtransactions or internet/cloud based games (we want physical copy on CD/DVD) or DRM crap

Remember there are people like me who, just because I can, will break your DRM/copy protection just for the fun/challenge of it. It may take people like me time to do it but rest assured we have all the time in the world and we will always succeed. Nothing brings a smile to our faces more than breaking/defeating what was thought to be unbreakable/undefeatable

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

Nope....isn't going to happen here on SubSim.

This forum is not to be used as a messenger board to game makers, or anyone else threatening copyright infringement.

Now I think you should remember "there are people like me" who will enforce the above...'just because I can' and I am confident that is what the forum owner expects.

[Oleander]

Part of it has to do with pressure from Financiers, that's usually the case with EA and Ubisoft. Ubisoft claims that they are losing 95% of their revenue due to piracy, how they come up with these numbers is anyone's guess.

But, rather than ask why are people pirating our games, they're looking at ways to come up with DRM to stop it cold which in the case of SH5 makes the game almost unplayable due to long load times caused by the game "checking in". EA also found out that making every single game have to play off the servers cripples the game and pisses everyone off.

So let's look at the other side of the coin. Why do people pirate games? Sometimes it has to do with gamers just being flat out broke or unwilling to pay $60 for a game. Which speaking of, when Super Mario Brothers came out it sold at $60 a lot of that price came from the cartridge manufacture. Today most games are released from cloud storage which is significantly cheaper in bulk, and I believe most people are catching on to that fact. That's how Steam is able to sell games at a cheaper price than anyone else and the do so in large numbers.

The second reason is games are being rushed, they aren't being polished or only a portion of the game is being released and the rest comes out through DLC. It wouldn't be so bad if the original game was $40 and the DLC was $10 a piece. No, the game will cost you $60, the DLC runs anywhere from $20-full retail and its usually lackluster. The Sims games are notorious for this.

The big companies are starting to loose their edge and its giving rise to a load of indie developers which is really good news for us as long as we can keep them out of the hands of the publishers.

[v-i-c-]

Originally Posted by Oleander

Part of it has to do with pressure from Financiers, that's usually the case with EA and Ubisoft. Ubisoft claims that they are losing 95% of their revenue due to piracy, how they come up with these numbers is anyone's guess.

I have no idea how Ubisoft "measures" piracy. But I know from other mobile indie developers that 95% is the usual rate of piracy for their games. They can measure it via Game Center. When you've sold just 5000 copies but you have 100000 users on Game Center then it's pretty clear that 95% of the players use illegal copies.

But the point is how many of those 95% would have bought it if it would have been impossible to copy it? That's something you can't answer unless you have a perfect copy protection.

Originally Posted by Oleander

So let's look at the other side of the coin. Why do people pirate games? Sometimes it has to do with gamers just being flat out broke or unwilling to pay $60 for a game.

Because a lot of people want everything for free and they just don't realize that what they are doing is nothing else but a kind of slavery (using the work of other but not willing to pay). Even my 99 cent titles all got pirated within 3 days - so it clearly is not about the poor "broke people" or overpricing.

Originally Posted by Oleander

Which speaking of, when Super Mario Brothers came out it sold at $60 a lot of that price came from the cartridge manufacture. Today most games are released from cloud storage which is significantly cheaper in bulk, and I believe most people are catching on to that fact. That's how Steam is able to sell games at a cheaper price than anyone else and the do so in large numbers.

A DVD Package with nice art is not that expensive it costs just a few dollars per unit. Getting rid of that would not even result in a price drop from $60 to $50.
I think the 24/7 instant availability of downloads is one of the reason why they go with cheaper prices. More people buy because they are just in the mood to play something like that and they can get it NOW within some minutes. Another reason is the competition on those platforms, price changes can be done within minutes and you don't need to produce boxes and hold them on stock which can be a risk. The usual 30% the platform earns is the same margin that the retailer got before.

Originally Posted by Oleander

The big companies are starting to loose their edge and its giving rise to a load of indie developers which is really good news for us as long as we can keep them out of the hands of the publishers.

The big companies are still winning on the totally overcrowded mobile platforms where usually hundreds of game come out every day. It's harder than ever before for indies today. 3-5 years ago it was a completely different situation and indies had their best days at that time. Just go on an indie-developer forum and ask…

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

Why don't you use your "arms" to create something? Instead you are attacking the financial base of the life of others who actually created something.

The "multi-national effort" you are talking about are modders and not pirates.

I've worked 5 years on my sim so far because I am developing it as a one man show - during this time I've invested all my money into it and this made me a really poor person, I am happy that I have something to eat which is basically my only luxury in life since I'm developing this title (I've left the house exactly 5 times this year because I don't have the time and money to do something outside at all) - I'm not nuts, I will use a copy protection - so the first thing you will do is crack it? For the fame? I would not call this fame but a shame.

Seriously I hope persons like you will someday work months just to find out that they finally won't get paid. (and even this would be nothing compared to 5 years) - how much is 5 years of your lifetime worth for you? Do you ever got pirated? Do you have the slightest idea how that feels? I really hope you will feel that feeling one day to learn something and to stop ripping off other people.

Even behind giant companies like Ubisoft there are people and jobs. And they have all rights to decide how much money they want for their work and how their product works (DRM, features etc.). If you don't like it then just don't buy it, no one forces you to buy it, but it does not give you the slightest (morale) right to crack it.

[Oleander]

Originally Posted by v-i-c-

I have no idea how Ubisoft "measures" piracy. But I know from other mobile indie developers that 95% is the usual rate of piracy for their games. They can measure it via Game Center. When you've sold just 5000 copies but you have 100000 users on Game Center then it's pretty clear that 95% of the players use illegal copies.

But the point is how many of those 95% would have bought it if it would have been impossible to copy it? That's something you can't answer unless you have a perfect copy protection.

That I will agree with you on, but not all games require you to register to play that's why I'm wondering where the numbers come from cause they seem pretty high. Its only a recent thing where publishers like Ubisoft have required games to be launched via U-Play much like what Steam does through its start up verification process. I'm not dead set against DRM, but I don't like it when it has the potential to render a game unplayable.

Originally Posted by v-i-c-

Because a lot of people want everything for free and they just don't realize that what they are doing is nothing else but a kind of slavery (using the work of other but not willing to pay). Even my 99 cent titles all got pirated within 3 days - so it clearly is not about the poor "broke people" or overpricing.

To an extent, yes. I can tell you from personal experience that I have bought my last game at launch price after I've been burned on several titles being launched buggy and nearly unplayable; SimCity, Arkham City, New Vegas and probably others. Nothing makes me more ill than paying $60 for a game and then not being able to play it because they messed up something in the code, or it was a bad port to PC or the new DRM policy has broken it. I'm not saying that's the sole reason but I think people are timid about buying games these days cause they're worried they'll get screwed, I mean look at Gary's Incident.


Please don't think I'm defending pirating, I hate it but it has its benefits. Look at what it has done for SH5, a game that was all but DOA when it launched from either bad code or stuff just being flat out unfinished. I think what TDW was trying to say is that those guys who can crack the game and get the source code so they can fix the problems if a game is broken, not to do it for personal game. Look at the modding communities out there, how many games have those communities to thank for their longevity on the market? There's a bunch that are still around 10+ years later thanks to mods and community improvement.

[v-i-c-]

Originally Posted by Oleander

Please don't think I'm defending pirating, I hate it but it has its benefits. Look at what it has done for SH5, a game that was all but DOA when it launched from either bad code or stuff just being flat out unfinished. I think what TDW was trying to say is that those guys who can crack the game and get the source code so they can fix the problems if a game is broken, not to do it for personal game. Look at the modding communities out there, how many games have those communities to thank for their longevity on the market? There's a bunch that are still around 10+ years later thanks to mods and community improvement.

Pirating (and cracking) and unfinished games are two different things. Pirating happens always and always for the same reason: "I don't want to pay", while not all games are unfinished and a lot of games can be modded without cracking. But even if modding is not possible it's not a justification for cracking. What if the company does not want to see any user modifications? (for example to release another more complex version later) You don't own software or games you buy a license to use them "as is" - that's the deal. (sure "as is" should also mean "as advertised" and not "unfinished rubbish")

[makman94]

Originally Posted by v-i-c-

Pirating (and cracking) and unfinished games are two different things. Pirating happens always and always for the same reason: "I don't want to pay", while not all games are unfinished and a lot of games can be modded without cracking. But even if modding is not possible it's not a justification for cracking. What if the company does not want to see any user modifications? (for example to release another more complex version later) You don't own software or games you buy a license to use them "as is" - that's the deal. (sure "as is" should also mean "as advertised" and not "unfinished rubbish")

of course you are correct VIC to all your points but think about this too:

long time ago
edited

ps: if the game is good and the devs have really worked on it ,i will gladly pay even 100 euros for a real good sim

[v-i-c-]

Originally Posted by makman94

i just don't want to give about 40-50 euros (isn't it their price when they firstly come out?) for 'experiments' on new games that is almost 95% the possibilities not to like them.

you see my point?

Yes, I know that point - but it is rare behavior.

But:

- When you watch a movie in cinema you pay something like $10,- for 90-120 minutes without knowing if you like it. No one starts crying "oh I want to test it first and will buy the DVD if it was good"

- A book costs $5-$100 - do you read it before buying it?

- When you eat in a Restaurant you might pay something like $10-$20, you don't know before if you like it.

- When you buy a new kind of Mars bar you pay $1 but you don't know if you like it. Most mobile Apps are $1,- and the piracy rate is 95%

- When mobile Apps are more "expensive" than $1,- people say it's rip-off, but they have no problem to pay $3.50 for each beer when going out (which is rip-off compared to the price in the supermarket)

But the main point is that the deal is to buy it for the price they want or just don't buy it. If they want you to be able to test it then they will release a demo. If the deal does not include to test it before then that's the deal.
Why do some people think they have some special rights to alter that deal?

The developers do it for a living, the customers buy for fun only.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by makman94

long time ago i installed a cracked version of sh3.
later i installed a cracked version of sh4,took a look at it and then i bought 1 original copy of it.
finaly, i installed a cracked version of sh5,took a look at it,delete it and never bought it.

at the end of the day ,there is NOT running any cracked game on my pc.

Before this discussion goes any further, I'm going to take this opportunity for a little reminder about Subsim's rules.

We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of game piracy, warez, peer-to-peer game swapping, game cracks, illegal download sites, or illegal file-sharing. Nothing will get you banned faster than pointing people to illegal software distribution sites. Don't ask for serial numbers, manuals, or cracks. Any admission that you have in your possession illegal software can and usually will result in revocation of your Radio Room forum account and permanent ban. We do not care what you do on your computer in your home, but do not discuss it here.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq....ules2_faq_item

[BigBANGtheory]

The whole SHO concept was dead from the start the way Blue Byte were doing it.

Its a real shame to see such wasted effort, but they wouldn't listen, thought they knew their market better than they actually did and got it completely wrong.

I've nothing against Blue Byte and their community manager should be applauded for giving some straight answers. Next time guys listen to your market and customer base before leaping into ivory tower development.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Played it about 3-4 times, compared to SH 3, 4 and 5 which I still play to this day.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Before this discussion goes any further, I'm going to take this opportunity for a little reminder about Subsim's rules.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq....ules2_faq_item

i am asking sorry SS if i broke the rules ,but -i believe that you can see it-my point was not to encourage people to piracy . on the contrary , i said exactly the opposite.
my point is in my whole post so please quote,at your post, the whole of it and not the parts that are containing the 'forbiden' words. i understand your point but it is also not looking nice the 'cutted' quotes

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by makman94

i am asking sorry SS if i broke the rules ,but -i believe that you can see it-my point was not to encourage people to piracy . on the contrary , i said exactly the opposite.
my point is in my whole post so please quote,at your post, the whole of it and not the parts that are containing the 'forbiden' words. i understand your point but it is also not looking nice the 'cutted' quotes

My warning was for everyone, and it was a warning to be careful. If you had broken the rules you would be in the brig now, and not able to post this. I used your post because you said that though you don't now you did at one point have a cracked version on your computer. Neal Stevens has a very special relationship with the game companies, and we don't want anyone to change that relationship just because they have something to say. Even that little bit could cause serious harm to Subsim.

The rule says we don't mention it at all, and in the future please obey that rule. If not, there will be consequences.

[Admiral Halsey]

What's with the no asking for a manual rule? I've not only lost manuals to my games before but back before I was somewhat computer savvy(Basically smart enough to know how NOT to mess the computer up accidentally) I even deleted the PDF manuals that came with the games.(This was back when I had a computer that only had 512 megabytes of ram with which to download games) Thinking i'd put the manuals on my bookshelves and would never lose them. Well I lost them and it was thanks to the members of the forums of the games I had that I was able to get new ones.