The Firearm thread: Engineering artistry of wood, polymer and steel.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I've never seen any of his videos. I'll check them out tomorrow.

I'm not doubting the 9x19's effectiveness or reliability or anything...I really like the caliber...but it's just the "shortage" (if you can call it that) is bad on the 9x19 as well as the .223

I'd rather get something different. Something a bit heavier...but not overkill...and not too expensive.

.40 seems just about right. I liked how it handled when I fired that .40 Compact and it's not an overrated caliber by any means IMO.


That was the end of that. JHP will make a nice hole. If militaries were allowed to use it, there would be some ugly holes for the doc to patch up. But since they can't use HP ammo, they use smaller calibers.

And anything FN makes is pretty cool anyway.

.40 cal is just about as in demand as 9x19mm is in fact if a person does not have 9x19mm they have a .40 and it is not really a controlled shortage it is supply and demand if you make ammo for the open market it does you no good to have a surplus because then the value goes down.By having your ammo in demand you make much more money.Renumber firearms manufactures and ammunition manufactures are for profit businesses.I think many people forget this important fact.

There is limit on caliber size under the Hauge Convention you just are not allowed to use certain types of ammunition.FMJ are used because they cause the cleanest wounds which in theory causes less suffering.The Hauge Convention has been around in one shape or form since the end of the 19th century and for over 70 years of it existence nations used full size rifle cartridges and still do in machine guns,sniper rifles and other specialist roles.

Most armed forces use smaller caliber ammunition for two reasons:
1.the ammo weighs much less and this allows a combatant to carry a much larger amount of ammunition under the same weight. If the cartridge is large a full size rifle round the typical solider will only have about 180 rounds in a smaller cartridge they can carry 240 rounds for the same cost in weight as the larger caliber.
2.It is far easier to train a person to have good marksmanship with a smaller caliber round than it is a heavier round additionally people of smaller frame can much more easily use a smaller caliber rifle while a larger may reduce their combat effectiveness.

All in all I think that the choice to use smaller caliber round was a wise one.Even in Vietnam where there where teething troubles with the M16 largely due to poor training and poor maintenance practices the advantage of 5.56mm was clear it encumbered troops less and they carry a large amount of ammunition that would have been very encumbering if it had been a larger caliber.You have also recall that in addition your ammo you also might be carrying a belt or two of ammunition for the machine gun in Vietnam that was the M60 7.62x51mm.

These days a platoon might only have two GPMG M240 and each squad will have at least one M249 which greatly increases the suppression ability of a squad so only the members of the weapons squad where the GMPG will be have to carry the heavier ammo and in the other squads usually one extra man carrier belts for M249(5.56mm) they use canvas bags told hold them so they really do not add that much weight.Both the M240 and the M249(sometimes known as MK46) are very highly rated by combat troops in yearly reviews.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

.40 cal is just about as in demand as 9x19mm is in fact if a person does not have 9x19mm they have a .40 and it is not really a controlled shortage it is supply and demand if you make ammo for the open market it does you no good to have a surplus because then the value goes down.By having your ammo in demand you make much more money.Renumber firearms manufactures and ammunition manufactures are for profit businesses.I think many people forget this important fact.

I know that there really isn't a shortage of this ammo...people are just buying it all up.

In fact, I found a store that sells boxes of Steel Case .223 for 6$ and Brass Casing 5.56 for 9$.

However, I don't own a pistol nor shoot pistols very much so I really don't know much about them. I can handle them correctly but that's about it. I'm not an expert in that department.

There is limit on caliber size under the Hauge Convention you just are not allowed to use certain types of ammunition.FMJ are used because they cause the cleanest wounds which in theory causes less suffering.The Hauge Convention has been around in one shape or form since the end of the 19th century and for over 70 years of it existence nations used full size rifle cartridges and still do in machine guns,sniper rifles and other specialist roles.

I remember it was one of those conventions.

Most armed forces use smaller caliber ammunition for two reasons:
1.the ammo weighs much less and this allows a combatant to carry a much larger amount of ammunition under the same weight. If the cartridge is large a full size rifle round the typical solider will only have about 180 rounds in a smaller cartridge they can carry 240 rounds for the same cost in weight as the larger caliber.
2.It is far easier to train a person to have good marksmanship with a smaller caliber round than it is a heavier round additionally people of smaller frame can much more easily use a smaller caliber rifle while a larger may reduce their combat effectiveness.

All in all I think that the choice to use smaller caliber round was a wise one.Even in Vietnam where there where teething troubles with the M16 largely due to poor training and poor maintenance practices the advantage of 5.56mm was clear it encumbered troops less and they carry a large amount of ammunition that would have been very encumbering if it had been a larger caliber.You have also recall that in addition your ammo you also might be carrying a belt or two of ammunition for the machine gun in Vietnam that was the M60 7.62x51mm.

Those are two other good reasons to use a smaller caliber...but that's for like an entire regular army. I was meaning Counterterrorism, SOF, Law Enforcement, etc.

I've heard over and over that they use Hollow Points and smaller calibers so they don't have to worry about shooting through bodies in a hostage situation or in a densely populated area.

These days a platoon might only have two GPMG M240 and each squad will have at least one M249 which greatly increases the suppression ability of a squad so only the members of the weapons squad where the GMPG will be have to carry the heavier ammo and in the other squads usually one extra man carrier belts for M249(5.56mm) they use canvas bags told hold them so they really do not add that much weight.Both the M240 and the M249(sometimes known as MK46) are very highly rated by combat troops in yearly reviews.

I've been trained on both the 240 and 249. I talked quite a bit with the gunner who was helping me.

He and I both agreed that they were awesome weapons.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I've heard over and over that they use Hollow Points and smaller calibers so they don't have to worry about shooting through bodies in a hostage situation or in a densely populated area.

What makes you think that 5.56mm will not penetrate?Trust me it can big time at close range.JHPs have a reduced ability to penetrate body armor therefore from a military standpoint they are not popular.Even an FMJ 5.56mm against good body armor once it penetrates that it is slowed to around .22longrifle ballistics.

When even much slower velocity JHP pistol rounds are very capable of full penetration common sense will tell you that a higher weight and velocity round most certainly will penetrate.

Look at the Bin Laden raid some non combatants still got hit by rounds and that was the one of the most elite units in the US military.

I dont really care that much about what LE does to be honest their job is supposed to be to protect and serve not to be a combat force.99% of SWAT actions are warrant raids anyway and you kind find hundreds of cases where they shot innocent people.Here in Florida a SWAT sniper got a perfect head shot with a .308 only thing was it was one of the hostages whose head he split apart and it was not a miss he thought the woman was a legit target.No offense to the good cops out there I know it a a lousy job at times and such and there are plenty of cops giving everyone a bad name.

So here is another real favorite of mine the M1917 Enfield certainly one of the best looking rifles ever made it also happens to one of the most accurate.I have never owned one personally but my father has one and I have fired his many times maybe he let me have it some day.His is the US Army model in .30-06 there was also a version for the British Army in .303 and also some .276 caliber.


I have read a few places that the M1917 and the Brit version where not ideal for trench combat because they became very unbalanced with a bayonet attached.But man they really are good shooters if you have it on a good rest but that might not be so good when a German is about to whack you in your tea drinking face with a razor sharp shovel.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Here in Florida a SWAT sniper got a perfect head shot with a .308 only thing was it was one of the hostages whose head he split apart and it was not a miss he thought the woman was a legit target.

Perhaps it was this type of hostage situation?



Warning racial language!

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps it was this type of hostage situation?



Warning racial language!

No nothing like that.I think it was a man threatening to kill himself and some how SWAT showed up right away nearly this woman looked out the window and caught a bullet this was back in the mid 90's I think the woman may have even been in a different house than the upset fellow.Anyway the woman's family got several million in settlement money.It was an LE failing on multiple levels.

Unlike the sheriff whose move was pure genius.

[Red October1984]

Here's another utterly horrible (IMHO) design.

Krummlauf

Wikipedia Page

The adaptation to the STG 44 to allow the user to shoot around corners. I don't know if you would call it a failed design since there has been a successful weapon system that shoots around corners Here

[Stealhead]

@RedOctober

You speak of the SMLE Mk.5 and Mk.6 they where not a bad design for close range combat but they have a fierce recoil but the bigger problem with them was that they had a "wandering zero" so they never where constantly accurate.A friend owned one at one time a Mk.6 I think which was the Aussie version but it might have been a Mk.5.The wandering zero most likely comes from the fact that the MK.5 & 6 are carbines of the Mk.4 SMLE and perhaps the sights where not properly adapted also the barrel might be so short that some of the powder is not getting burned off.

During WWI the British Army and Commonwealth Armies used primarily the SMLE Mk.3 with a 17" bayonet some British units used the Enfeild Pattern 1914 rifle which is the Brit version of the M1917 that i mentioned earlier as far as I am aware only British units used them ANZAC and Indian troops pretty much exclusively used the SMLE Mk.3.

The Krummlaf is not so much a bad design as an impractical one if you ask me.

Here are two designs that you should look up the M1941 Johnson rifle and the M1941 Johnson machine gun.You may find them very interesting because they introduced some concepts that are now very common.Many of the guys that worked for Johnson later worked for a subsidiary of Fairchild Engine and Airplane Inc. that produced firearms and put those concepts intot he firearm they desgined.That is a clue there. See how much you can find out on your own.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

What makes you think that 5.56mm will not penetrate?Trust me it can big time at close range.JHPs have a reduced ability to penetrate body armor therefore from a military standpoint they are not popular.Even an FMJ 5.56mm against good body armor once it penetrates that it is slowed to around .22longrifle ballistics.

I though we were talking about pistols.

So here is another real favorite of mine the M1917 Enfield certainly one of the best looking rifles ever made it also happens to one of the most accurate.I have never owned one personally but my father has one and I have fired his many times maybe he let me have it some day.His is the US Army model in .30-06 there was also a version for the British Army in .303 and also some .276 caliber.

Beautiful rifle. I always liked the British Enfield more though. Still, nice gun.

I have read a few places that the M1917 and the Brit version where not ideal for trench combat because they became very unbalanced with a bayonet attached.But man they really are good shooters if you have it on a good rest but that might not be so good when a German is about to whack you in your tea drinking face with a razor sharp shovel.

I know the Brits shortened their SMLE Enfields to use in the Jungle in WW2. I'm not sure about what they did for trench combat.