Community-Developed Submarine Simulation: Wishlist

Karl Heinrich · 02-18-13, 12:28 PM

In the light of SHO, there seems to have been a fair amount of talk recenlty about the future of sims and the possibility of a community-led creation of a new sim. A product by subsimmers for subsimmers as it were (would be nice to get a dedicated thread for this).

More on that in this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=201664&page=4

Obviously there are a lot of potential issues about the extent of development by the community itself and the issues of funding, obviously several have mentioned Kickstarter - but we can't just start a kickstarter and hope for the best without an idea of what's trying to be achieved.

Even amongst our relatively niche group, there's going to be a desire for different levels of realism (or even differing definitions of what's realistic).
But what is that you would want from such a sim, what are the must-have features and elements?

My general proposal for an ideal world would be that a platform is developed that creates a physical world that simulates standard features and phenomenon and then from that a WW2 and Cold War (and whatever else) version could be built upon that. Very much pie-in-the-sky thinking, I know. As such it would certainly be "moddable" - inherently so.

The List
Updated based on posts below - anything with more than one vote will be noted.

Generally divided into four categories: Your Sub, the Physical World, Crew, and AI/Other Vessels. Certain things will be marked of higher priority eventually, I think common sense can direct that... Obviosuly many things may be near impossible, but I suppose it's nice to have something to aim for.

Crew
- Realistic crew roles and responsibilities
- Watch switching (automatic / manual option)
- Optional fatigue (ideally based on length of patrol / time submerged? not because the crew are getting "a bit drowsy", the R/L watch system would and does minimise that).
- Real navigation with scalable assistance from "Navigation Officer" (what sort of assistance would you want?)
- Weapons Officer assistance scaleable - much as with current mods (any specific suggestions for this?)
- Evacuation Procedure

AI / Traffic
- Realistic/Historic traffic for shipping and warships- Surface skirmishes and battles between AI

The Sub
- Real subs and their upgrades (like most things, this is probably a given, but added for sake of completeness)
- Optional manual control of ballast pumps/individual tanks
- Optional manual control of hydroplanes / manual trim etc

Physical world
- Realistic hydrodynamics and oceanographic elements, including but not limited to tides, currents, thermal layers, internal waves etc. etc.
- Well-modelled coastlines
- Realistic / historic celestial data modelled for real navigation
- Intelligent Convoys and Task Forces (realistic/historic behaviour)
- Realistic / variable (and seasonal) water opacity

UI/Interface etc.
- Multiple monitor support
- Use of internal windows a la MSFS (Flight Sim) so different displays and gauges can be dragged and dropped to different monitors

Multiplayer functionality
- One sub multiplayer (something Ubi once talked about

)

Sailor Steve · 02-18-13, 12:47 PM

I've been compiling a list of what I think the perfect subsim should have, and I've been doing it for years. It's far to big to post here.

Karl Heinrich · 02-18-13, 01:21 PM

Haha, I had a fear that this would probably be the case for many...

Saltback · 02-19-13, 05:03 PM

Hi Guy's!

Would be cool if we could evacuate the sub before it go's to the dark depth's.. Maybe a small life raft to climb into and some smoke to add rescue

Karl Heinrich · 02-19-13, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltback

Hi Guy's!

Would be cool if we could evacuate the sub before it go's to the dark depth's.. Maybe a small life raft to climb into and some smoke to add rescue

I've started a list in the original post, and summarised this as evacuation procedure

happymeal2 · 02-19-13, 10:32 PM

It would have to model a realistic crew. Not just making the ship faster or slower, but things like crew movement, watch switching, maybe assistance from the navigation officer with plotting courses, and assistance from the weapons officer when planning attacks (option for this? some people like doing it themselves). Point being, skippers didnt do this all themselves, although im sure they would be allowed to if they wanted.

Realistic damage if possible. Health bars in video games annoy me more than anything else that has ever existed.

As a general reccomendation, go through some of the popular mods and pick some of the well-liked features out of there. Many of those mods do a very good job of filling in the gaps in the game with things that people want and make it better in doing so. Not to mention making it more fun.

Real subs and their upgrades would always be great, ubi did it with the games, where they had upgrades to the subs - this would definitely be something to be carried over.

Realistic traffic for shipping and warships, as well as possible battles if it could be pulled off, would be a massive bonus. Think Run Silent Run Deep from SH4.

Convoys and Task Forces need to be not stupid, ive attacked a few convoys that just continue going in straight lines even though im sitting there shelling a ship into pieces. There are mods that fix this, but ideally mods shouldnt have to.

Most importantly, make it moddable. This way, if assistance is required making the game or part of... Well, theres a massive amount of geniuses here that can pull off just about anything given the proper time. If it is easily moddable then if something doesnt go right it can be fixed easily as well.

Thats it for now, im sure ill come up with others. Glad to see theres a will in someone to get a project like this started, certainly not an easy task.

Karl Heinrich · 02-20-13, 07:02 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll add them up ASAP

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymeal2

As a general reccomendation, go through some of the popular mods and pick some of the well-liked features out of there. Many of those mods do a very good job of filling in the gaps in the game with things that people want and make it better in doing so. Not to mention making it more fun.

Absolutely, been playing modded for quite a long time, but the idea of this post was to just generally see what people has a whole wanted to see, and build a picture from that. There's so many mods that do so many things and there are things mods don't or can't do

That, and that I'm pretty lazy....

And it certainly would have to be moddable in my book, that's a given. It would ideally be a pretty modular core system at first I iamgine, so it can be a platform for WW2 and Cold War (and whatever else, within reason). Sure that has it's downsides too.

There's a lot of inherent problems in community projects (design by committee and "too many chiefs" being the most obvious), but hopefully we can get some momentum going and try and get something productive happening. It could be a long time in the works, but of people we should be pretty patient

finchOU · 02-20-13, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've been compiling a list of what I think the perfect subsim should have, and I've been doing it for years. It's far to big to post here.

Reminds me of pre SH3/SH5 wish lists threads. Think most of us have an idea of the perfect subsim.

Rokko · 02-20-13, 11:33 AM

The subsim I'd envision would be highly upgradeble basegame with a very limited focus, which it would actually do well, though.
Like a basegame that may only have a Typ VIIC boat playable from August 1940 to December 1941 but has a correct and detailed environment, that is realisitc marine traffic, historicaly correct naval operations during this limited time, radio messages, radio "stations" maybe.
Due to this limited actual content focus on correct damage model, ship traffic, physics, general environment, user interface, AI, etc.
More playable subs and different campaigns (equally detailed of course) could be delivered as DLCs or modules later on due to its modular nature. Or maybe little (optinal) detail improvements like maybe something called "Crew deteriation" that would make your crew grow beards and their clothing becoming less and less "orderly".
That way we could get an enjoyable sim that would in my opinion also be economically sustainable.

happymeal2 · 02-20-13, 03:28 PM

When i say assistance from navigation officer, im thinking pick out a location on a map and the officer plots the (fastest, least dangerous, or deep-watered?) course for you, of course with the option to plot said course on your own. Just a thought, as it again would seem to be something a captain would not do, but also something that people like doing themselves.

Not sure if weapons officers ran the numbers for manual TDC or if the captain of the boat did it himself, but thats what i had in mind- allow the option to have the WO do it. Similar to auto TDC except that manual adjustments could be made instead of just having to rely on it. Again, optional system there.

Thought of something else. Realistic damage control for the sub (and hopefully other ships as well). If theres a gaping hole in the sub, it wouldnt dive until said hole was filled.

Karl Heinrich · 02-20-13, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rokko

The subsim I'd envision would be highly upgradeble basegame with a very limited focus, which it would actually do well, though.
Like a basegame that may only have a Typ VIIC boat playable from August 1940 to December 1941 but has a correct and detailed environment, that is realisitc marine traffic, historicaly correct naval operations during this limited time, radio messages, radio "stations" maybe.
Due to this limited actual content focus on correct damage model, ship traffic, physics, general environment, user interface, AI, etc.
More playable subs and different campaigns (equally detailed of course) could be delivered as DLCs or modules later on due to its modular nature.

That's almost exactly what I had in mind and proposed in the first post

Similarly this base game could then enable the development of a Cold War version etc.

Saltback · 02-21-13, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Heinrich

I've started a list in the original post, and summarised this as evacuation procedure

Hi Heirich Thanks

How long will it be before this release

happymeal2 · 02-21-13, 11:13 PM

Out of curiosity, is this a project in the early stages of design and development or an idea not yet started/possibly bound for kickstarter?

Red October1984 · 02-21-13, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymeal2

Out of curiosity, is this a project in the early stages of design and development or an idea not yet started/possibly bound for kickstarter?

I don't know how many people around here are serious about this. At this point, i think this is all hypothetical. I doubt we will be the ones to make a "perfect" simulator.

There is that World War 1 game that is slowly being developed here at Subsim.

Imperial U-Flotilla

Here's my two cents...

What I think you should do is get everyone together on the Imperial U-Flotilla and put all your features that you want into that game and work on it as a community. It looks like it's just Daemon who's working on it now and I'm sure he would appreciate some help. World War One is virtually untouched in the simulation world. You guys could do great things with this project.

We can sit and talk all day about the "Perfect Sub Simulator" but nobody is going to make it happen. I say put it all into Imperial U-Flotilla and make it an Indie game worth playing.

longam · 02-22-13, 08:50 AM

These things always end up vapor ware. I've seen a few simulators in the past go threw the same issues. It takes so long to develop that people drop out or the game engine and graphics are out of date before it is finished.

02-18-13, 12:28 PM	#1
Karl Heinrich Soundman Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 146 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 2	Community-Developed Submarine Simulation: Wishlist In the light of SHO, there seems to have been a fair amount of talk recenlty about the future of sims and the possibility of a community-led creation of a new sim. A product by subsimmers for subsimmers as it were (would be nice to get a dedicated thread for this). More on that in this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=201664&page=4 Obviously there are a lot of potential issues about the extent of development by the community itself and the issues of funding, obviously several have mentioned Kickstarter - but we can't just start a kickstarter and hope for the best without an idea of what's trying to be achieved. Even amongst our relatively niche group, there's going to be a desire for different levels of realism (or even differing definitions of what's realistic). But what is that you would want from such a sim, what are the must-have features and elements? My general proposal for an ideal world would be that a platform is developed that creates a physical world that simulates standard features and phenomenon and then from that a WW2 and Cold War (and whatever else) version could be built upon that. Very much pie-in-the-sky thinking, I know. As such it would certainly be "moddable" - inherently so. The List Updated based on posts below - anything with more than one vote will be noted. Generally divided into four categories: Your Sub, the Physical World, Crew, and AI/Other Vessels. Certain things will be marked of higher priority eventually, I think common sense can direct that... Obviosuly many things may be near impossible, but I suppose it's nice to have something to aim for. Crew - Realistic crew roles and responsibilities - Watch switching (automatic / manual option) - Optional fatigue (ideally based on length of patrol / time submerged? not because the crew are getting "a bit drowsy", the R/L watch system would and does minimise that). - Real navigation with scalable assistance from "Navigation Officer" (what sort of assistance would you want?) - Weapons Officer assistance scaleable - much as with current mods (any specific suggestions for this?) - Evacuation Procedure AI / Traffic - Realistic/Historic traffic for shipping and warships- Surface skirmishes and battles between AI The Sub - Real subs and their upgrades (like most things, this is probably a given, but added for sake of completeness) - Optional manual control of ballast pumps/individual tanks - Optional manual control of hydroplanes / manual trim etc Physical world - Realistic hydrodynamics and oceanographic elements, including but not limited to tides, currents, thermal layers, internal waves etc. etc. - Well-modelled coastlines - Realistic / historic celestial data modelled for real navigation - Intelligent Convoys and Task Forces (realistic/historic behaviour) - Realistic / variable (and seasonal) water opacity UI/Interface etc. - Multiple monitor support - Use of internal windows a la MSFS (Flight Sim) so different displays and gauges can be dragged and dropped to different monitors Multiplayer functionality - One sub multiplayer (something Ubi once talked about ) __________________ “Die Südfrüchte runter vom Kartentisch. Auf Bananen kann ich nicht navigieren.” Last edited by Karl Heinrich; 02-20-13 at 08:03 AM.

02-18-13, 12:47 PM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I've been compiling a list of what I think the perfect subsim should have, and I've been doing it for years. It's far to big to post here. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

02-18-13, 01:21 PM	#3
Karl Heinrich Soundman Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 146 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 2	Haha, I had a fear that this would probably be the case for many... __________________ “Die Südfrüchte runter vom Kartentisch. Auf Bananen kann ich nicht navigieren.”

02-19-13, 05:03 PM	#4
Saltback Seaman Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 33 Downloads: 213 Uploads: 0	Not to late I Hope? Hi Guy's! Would be cool if we could evacuate the sub before it go's to the dark depth's.. Maybe a small life raft to climb into and some smoke to add rescue __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Safe Sailing, Get Home Safely!

02-19-13, 10:32 PM	#6
happymeal2 Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 22 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	It would have to model a realistic crew. Not just making the ship faster or slower, but things like crew movement, watch switching, maybe assistance from the navigation officer with plotting courses, and assistance from the weapons officer when planning attacks (option for this? some people like doing it themselves). Point being, skippers didnt do this all themselves, although im sure they would be allowed to if they wanted. Realistic damage if possible. Health bars in video games annoy me more than anything else that has ever existed. As a general reccomendation, go through some of the popular mods and pick some of the well-liked features out of there. Many of those mods do a very good job of filling in the gaps in the game with things that people want and make it better in doing so. Not to mention making it more fun. Real subs and their upgrades would always be great, ubi did it with the games, where they had upgrades to the subs - this would definitely be something to be carried over. Realistic traffic for shipping and warships, as well as possible battles if it could be pulled off, would be a massive bonus. Think Run Silent Run Deep from SH4. Convoys and Task Forces need to be not stupid, ive attacked a few convoys that just continue going in straight lines even though im sitting there shelling a ship into pieces. There are mods that fix this, but ideally mods shouldnt have to. Most importantly, make it moddable. This way, if assistance is required making the game or part of... Well, theres a massive amount of geniuses here that can pull off just about anything given the proper time. If it is easily moddable then if something doesnt go right it can be fixed easily as well. Thats it for now, im sure ill come up with others. Glad to see theres a will in someone to get a project like this started, certainly not an easy task. Last edited by happymeal2; 02-19-13 at 11:01 PM.

02-20-13, 11:33 AM	#9
Rokko Seaman Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 31 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 0	The subsim I'd envision would be highly upgradeble basegame with a very limited focus, which it would actually do well, though. Like a basegame that may only have a Typ VIIC boat playable from August 1940 to December 1941 but has a correct and detailed environment, that is realisitc marine traffic, historicaly correct naval operations during this limited time, radio messages, radio "stations" maybe. Due to this limited actual content focus on correct damage model, ship traffic, physics, general environment, user interface, AI, etc. More playable subs and different campaigns (equally detailed of course) could be delivered as DLCs or modules later on due to its modular nature. Or maybe little (optinal) detail improvements like maybe something called "Crew deteriation" that would make your crew grow beards and their clothing becoming less and less "orderly". That way we could get an enjoyable sim that would in my opinion also be economically sustainable.

02-20-13, 03:28 PM	#10
happymeal2 Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 22 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	When i say assistance from navigation officer, im thinking pick out a location on a map and the officer plots the (fastest, least dangerous, or deep-watered?) course for you, of course with the option to plot said course on your own. Just a thought, as it again would seem to be something a captain would not do, but also something that people like doing themselves. Not sure if weapons officers ran the numbers for manual TDC or if the captain of the boat did it himself, but thats what i had in mind- allow the option to have the WO do it. Similar to auto TDC except that manual adjustments could be made instead of just having to rely on it. Again, optional system there. Thought of something else. Realistic damage control for the sub (and hopefully other ships as well). If theres a gaping hole in the sub, it wouldnt dive until said hole was filled.

02-21-13, 11:13 PM	#13
happymeal2 Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 22 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Out of curiosity, is this a project in the early stages of design and development or an idea not yet started/possibly bound for kickstarter?

02-22-13, 08:50 AM	#15
longam Admiral Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,014 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	These things always end up vapor ware. I've seen a few simulators in the past go threw the same issues. It takes so long to develop that people drop out or the game engine and graphics are out of date before it is finished.