The Way I See It

Red October1984 · 07-07-12, 11:04 AM

The age of Naval Simulations is over. Companies want to make big, blockbuster, moneymakers. So, as the "new simulation" they release cheap, easy, games that wont last, or they're broken without mods. Are we stuck hoping for a new SH3? Or a new Dangerous Waters. All we get are these little flash games like Battleship Chess. Battleship Chess is hard, and i dont like it too much. Nowadays, The Sims 3 is the top in the simulation category. That isnt a real simulation. Sims are going to free to play formats now. Microsoft Flight, Silent Hunter Online, etc. Maybe I havent done enough research. Correct me if you want, the only sims coming out now are crappy. Or there are very good ones like X-Plane 10. But thats a small company compared to Ubi, Activision, EA, etc.

Thats just the way I see it.

Sailor Steve · 07-07-12, 11:33 AM

The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all.

I think the best sims have always been made by small groups who really wanted to do them. Silent Service was created by Sid Meier. Aces Of The Deep was Dynamix. Silent Hunter was made by Strategic Simulations Inc. When they were bought out by Ubisoft the downhill slide started. SH3 was a jump up, but after that they started to suffer because it was all being controlled by corporate heads who don't really care about sims at all.

It's the nature of the beast.

Red October1984 · 07-07-12, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all.

I think the best sims have always been made by small groups who really wanted to do them. Silent Service was created by Sid Meier. Aces Of The Deep was Dynamix. Silent Hunter was made by Strategic Simulations Inc. When they were bought out by Ubisoft the downhill slide started. SH3 was a jump up, but after that they started to suffer because it was all being controlled by corporate heads who don't really care about sims at all.

It's the nature of the beast.

I will admit i have never played Silent Service or Aces of the Deep. I hear that they are very good. Microsoft has done some remarkable work with the Flight Simulator series. Now, the new Free to Play Microsoft Flight, i dont think, will ever live up to Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, 2002, X, etc. I would like to try out AOTD and SS one of these days.

Hinrich Schwab · 07-08-12, 12:29 AM

Aces of the Deep is one of the best subsims ever made. Silent Service was good enought to both get a sequel and a NES port, thanks to Konami's old front company, Ultra Games. Both franchises are worth experiencing. As I have repeatedly said in the past, the next great subsim is going to come from the subsim community, not these greedy megacorps who only want cash-cow titles.

Hawk66 · 07-08-12, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all.

Yup, ...else they could not survive

at least not within the western business model...but yes, especially big companies strive often for short-term goals due to the stock market.

So, in the 80/90's there was a market for simulation, simply the people were interested in such stuff and the graphics capability were not that strong so game mechanics was to some extend more important than today.

RedOctober is completely right...colleagues and buddies of mine buying iPads and that stuff like the hell, telling me that the PC is dead and buying nonsense games from the AppStore which they delete after a couple of days and buy the next. When you are saying that you are interested in naval simulations, with manuals big like a telephone book (Dangerous Waters), you get a weird look at the best.

The flight sim guys have at least DCS, which is very fortunate for them.

And apart from the Silent Hunter ('offline') series, also the modern naval simulation era looks in a very bad state...I've not seen any message from the Sonalysts guys for over a year now.

BigBANGtheory · 07-08-12, 03:45 AM

You have to carve out your own market for SIMs imho, the reason why DCS series works is that it sells itself and they offset some of the development costs with collaboration on commercial contracts.

My point is you need to put something out there that screams High Quality, even if its limited in scope. I think also people under estimate how fed up console gamers are of the rinse and repeat FPS games but they don't want some half arsed attempt or something that isn't up to par on the presentation its got to look real.

Above all else this is what BIS with Arma3 understands, lessons to be learnt.

07-08-12, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk66

The flight sim guys have at least DCS, which is very fortunate for them.

Agreed, DCS is the perfect counterexample that you can be succesfull and produce high quality simulators in the same time.

Red October1984 · 07-08-12, 09:04 AM

DCS, i hear, is a very good group of sims. But, the 'puter isnt powerful enough for most games. Im stuck playing the favorites from 2004. Im not saying that my games arent fun as hell. I love a good flight sim. Good naval sim too. One of these days, im going to score a new desktop and catch up on all of the newer sims. Flight sims havent died yet. I dont believe that the PC is dead, I just think the game selection is changing drastically. Pop on over to amazon and take you a look through the Simulations category in the PC section. All I saw was the Sims 3 and its thousands of add ons. The PC isnt dead, simulations are dying.

Moment of silence for all the greats....

Takeda Shingen · 07-08-12, 09:59 AM

All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

USS Drum · 07-08-12, 12:31 PM

The last good Silent Hunter game was S.ilent Hunter 4

Red October1984 · 07-08-12, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

I really hope so. There is no better genre in the PC world.

Julhelm · 07-08-12, 12:37 PM

*rant on*

If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them.

Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there.

*rant off*

Iron Budokan · 07-08-12, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

^This. As a writer I have seen the same thing happen with genres. I've seen it happen with games, too. It is ever thus.

Hawk66 · 07-08-12, 12:58 PM

@Julhelm...I think it is realistic to do a 2D sub sim like RedStormRising (concentrating on game logic and simplify the simulation environment a bit)...but 3D with a scope like Dangerous Waters(multi-platform including non-subs, which needs 3D) is a complete other story.

The engines you mention have not the focus on simulations..more on RPGs and that stuff...I am not claiming it is impossible but you would need months alone to learn the stuff to do simulations with it...

So or so to develop a 3D naval sim, you would need to find a bunch of very dedicated people, doing this for a decade or more in their spare time...

Hinrich Schwab · 07-08-12, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

*rant on*

If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them.

Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there.

*rant off*

It's nice to know you still won't miss an opportunity to let everyone know how much you truly hate the community here. Your argument that no one will step up to make a sim is invalid. The group here at http://www.u-boot-hahd.com/index.html are both working on a megamod for SHIII and are laying the groundwork for a new sim, as well.

07-07-12, 11:04 AM	#1
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,243 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	The Way I See It The age of Naval Simulations is over. Companies want to make big, blockbuster, moneymakers. So, as the "new simulation" they release cheap, easy, games that wont last, or they're broken without mods. Are we stuck hoping for a new SH3? Or a new Dangerous Waters. All we get are these little flash games like Battleship Chess. Battleship Chess is hard, and i dont like it too much. Nowadays, The Sims 3 is the top in the simulation category. That isnt a real simulation. Sims are going to free to play formats now. Microsoft Flight, Silent Hunter Online, etc. Maybe I havent done enough research. Correct me if you want, the only sims coming out now are crappy. Or there are very good ones like X-Plane 10. But thats a small company compared to Ubi, Activision, EA, etc. Thats just the way I see it. __________________

07-07-12, 11:33 AM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all. I think the best sims have always been made by small groups who really wanted to do them. Silent Service was created by Sid Meier. Aces Of The Deep was Dynamix. Silent Hunter was made by Strategic Simulations Inc. When they were bought out by Ubisoft the downhill slide started. SH3 was a jump up, but after that they started to suffer because it was all being controlled by corporate heads who don't really care about sims at all. It's the nature of the beast. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

07-08-12, 09:04 AM	#8
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,243 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	DCS, i hear, is a very good group of sims. But, the 'puter isnt powerful enough for most games. Im stuck playing the favorites from 2004. Im not saying that my games arent fun as hell. I love a good flight sim. Good naval sim too. One of these days, im going to score a new desktop and catch up on all of the newer sims. Flight sims havent died yet. I dont believe that the PC is dead, I just think the game selection is changing drastically. Pop on over to amazon and take you a look through the Simulations category in the PC section. All I saw was the Sims 3 and its thousands of add ons. The PC isnt dead, simulations are dying. Moment of silence for all the greats.... __________________

07-08-12, 12:29 AM	#4
Hinrich Schwab Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 908 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	Aces of the Deep is one of the best subsims ever made. Silent Service was good enought to both get a sequel and a NES port, thanks to Konami's old front company, Ultra Games. Both franchises are worth experiencing. As I have repeatedly said in the past, the next great subsim is going to come from the subsim community, not these greedy megacorps who only want cash-cow titles.

07-08-12, 03:45 AM	#6
BigBANGtheory Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: British Waters Posts: 243 Downloads: 98 Uploads: 0	You have to carve out your own market for SIMs imho, the reason why DCS series works is that it sells itself and they offset some of the development costs with collaboration on commercial contracts. My point is you need to put something out there that screams High Quality, even if its limited in scope. I think also people under estimate how fed up console gamers are of the rinse and repeat FPS games but they don't want some half arsed attempt or something that isn't up to par on the presentation its got to look real. Above all else this is what BIS with Arma3 understands, lessons to be learnt.

07-08-12, 09:59 AM	#9
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

07-08-12, 12:31 PM	#10
USS Drum Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 977 Downloads: 126 Uploads: 0	The last good Silent Hunter game was S.ilent Hunter 4

07-08-12, 12:37 PM	#12
Julhelm Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Icy North Posts: 692 Downloads: 189 Uploads: 0	rant on If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere. Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them. Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there. rant off

07-08-12, 12:58 PM	#14
Hawk66 Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 597 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	@Julhelm...I think it is realistic to do a 2D sub sim like RedStormRising (concentrating on game logic and simplify the simulation environment a bit)...but 3D with a scope like Dangerous Waters(multi-platform including non-subs, which needs 3D) is a complete other story. The engines you mention have not the focus on simulations..more on RPGs and that stuff...I am not claiming it is impossible but you would need months alone to learn the stuff to do simulations with it... So or so to develop a 3D naval sim, you would need to find a bunch of very dedicated people, doing this for a decade or more in their spare time...