How do I learn about things? - Page 2

Zakalwe · 08-01-09, 11:11 AM

Well JD,

if anyone disagreeing with your opinion is a fan-boy in your regard, so be it.

I just wanted to point out, that you were not telling the truth when you said critizism is not tolerated on Gamesquad. This would IMO include Moderation and especially constant deleting of such things like you see it on several company owned game boards. Nothing like this happens on Gamesquad. If other users are disagreeing with yours and others view, well this is (virtual) life.

And again, BH has explained what influences gunnery numerous times. Smoke, sun, visibility, position of the directors on the ship, wind and what-not. He said that ships have a 3D interieur of armour, machinery, bulkheads etc. on which a AP shell could explode or not. He said that HE shells aren`t penetrating any serious armour. Could there be some finetuning at times? Of course. I especially have some doubts about the DDs, which IMO last too long at times. But if you`ve read Campbell, you got a pretty good idea, what a shell does and from what I`ve read from SES, they tried very hard to simulate these things. And it works not bad with ships like CLs and bigger.

I simply think it is very unfair to describe SES and especially BH like you did. As I said before, via email, PN and the ticket system I had several contacts with the guys and they for sure DO listen. Many many things we suggested back in the DG 1.0 days made its way into Jutland. Does it have still room for improvement? For sure. If your suggestion is reasonable, I bet it will be considered.

We (again) simply have to agree to disagree.

As for WitP,

well, if I only was interested one iota into that theatre. I haven`t even bought SH4 although it`s available for 10 € and if my Il-2 online squad is flying there, I take a vacation. Simply not my piece of cake.

Greets

Z.

Admiral Von Gerlach · 08-14-09, 02:30 PM

My goodness.

I have tested both DG and Jutland and find them both cutting edge when it comes to realism, accuracy, truth to history and detail. They are amazing efforts and deserve support not attacks. I am glad to see there is solid support for the developers here. The angry nature of attacks and the lack of validity to them shows to me there are some who would rather criticize than appreciate. It is a HUGE achievemnt they have made and I hope to see more of their work to come to us.

I am btw a Fleet Admiral with 30 years of experience at wargaming that started with waterline models of both 1200 and 3000 scale, with the 1200 scale Wargame Society and the Naval Wargames Society of UK, I have commanded in major actions and minor, individual ships, squadrons and Battlefleets for the Royal Navy, the High Seas Fleet, all the major naval powers of the pre dreadnought and dreadnought eras.

As for history of this remarkable era:

here are some helpful sites and I am happy to help you with specific questions by PM

I suggest a remarkable on line resource, Admiral Scheer's Memoir which is online and you can read here:

http://www.richthofen.com/scheer/

he led the German Imperial High Seas Fleet at Jutland and I recomend reading from both sides of the conflict as there is a huge amount of info from the Allied side esp the RN and it tends to be biased at times, the German fleet was unit by unit superior to the British, and only the limited Fleet in being doctrine hampered the german efforts from being much more successful and the fleet war from being more dynamic. Jutland was a tactical victory for the German High Seas Fleet but the dominance of the world trade lanes by the Royal Navy slowly starved the Imperial German aspirations and other than some far flung cruiser actions, see in partciular the Emden and the Koningsberg, the war was one of attirtion and there was little chance for the main fleets to engage.

Remember tho we model and play out the conflict using ships and dynamics, it was a var of wills, a conflict of world wide proportions and the fleets of the day were the pinacle of the projection of National aspirations at a time when the balance of world power was in question and it was fought out on at the engagments not only of Jutland and the like but also in the day to day duty of the crews and officers aboard ships that were, though powerful, often crude, highly demanding on the men on duty, and very very hard to live aboard even in fair seas. Remember that and the study of the history and the perfecting of your skills at any sim will seem worth the effort.

http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm

http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1914-18.htm

some books:

British Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18 by HMSO, published by Sutton Publishing Ltd.
Reprint of the official list of British merchant and warship losses.

Conways all the Worlds Fighting Ships 1890-1905, 1906-1921 published by Conway Maritime Press.
Two volumes of the excellent reference books which cover most ships of the era.

German Warships of World War I published by Greenhill Books.
Based on Royal Navy intelligence at the time, like Jane's lacks the benefit of hindsight but still very interesting.

Jane's Fighting Ships of Word War I published by Jane's Publishing Ltd.
Re-print of the famous reference book from the period. As you would expect for a book published at the time not all that accurate but still interesting.

Navy List August 1914, published by HMSO
The Navy List at the outbreak of war.

Official Naval Dispatches published Fernmoor Publications Ltd.

Reprint of Royal Navy official dispatches for 1914.

The Naval Who's Who 1917 published by J. B. Hayword & Son.
Re-print of 1917 Who's who of Royal Nay and Royal Marine officers plus listing of British personnel lost at Jutland.

Alexander, Roy - The Cruise of the Raider Wolf published by The Noontide Press.
Account of life as a prisoner on the German disguised raider.

Bennet, Geoffry - Coronel and the Falklands published by Birlinn
Good account of the two battles.

Bennet, Geoffry - Naval Battles of the First World War published by Pan
Single volume history of the main events.

Bennet, Geoffry - The Battle of Jutland published by Wordsworth Editions Limited.
Re-print of what was the first non-official account of Jutland to have access to the suppressed Harper Papers.

Breyer, Siegfried - Battleships and Battlecruiser 1905-1970 published by Macdonald
Technical details in the period covered.

Breyer, Siegfried - Battleships of the World 1905-1970 published by Conway Maritime Press
Pictorial account of 'modern' battleships.

Brook, Peter - Warships for Export, Armstrong Warships 1867-1927 published by World Ship Society
Good account of Armstrong built warships.

Brown, D K - The Grand Fleet published by Chatham Publishing.
RN warship design from Dreadnought to 1922.

Brown, D K - Warrior to Dreadnought published by Chatham Publishing.
Excellent technical history of Royal Navy warship technical development from the last days of sail to the "modern" battleship.

Burt, R A and Trotter, W P - Battleships of the Grand Fleet published by Arms and Armour Press
Good selection of unusual British dreadnought photographs.

Burt, R A - British Battleships 1889-1904 published by Naval Institute Press
Pre-dreadnoughts era excellent technical and service history details.

Burt, R A - British Battleships of World War 1 published by Naval Institute Press
Doesn't cover pre-dreadnoughts but excellent technical and service history details.

Burt, R A - British Cruisers in World War One published by Arms and Armour Press
Photographic guide.

Burt, R A - British Destroyers in World War One published by Arms and Armour Press
Photographic guide.

Burt, R A - German Battleships 1897-1945 published by Arms and Armour Press
Photographic guide.

Campbell, N J M - Battle Cruisers published by Conway Maritime Press
Excellent guide to WW1 Battlecruisers.

Campbell, N J M - Jutland - An Analysis of the Fighting published by Conway Maritime Press.
Very detailed, almost shell-by-shell account of the battle, very technical and it can be easy to lose sight of the bigger picture of the battle, but still very good.

Chalmers, Rear-Admiral W S - The Life and Letters of David, Earl Beatty published by Hodder and Stoughton.
A Beatty friendly biography of the Admiral by someone who served under him.

Chatfied, Lord E - The Navy and Defence published by Windmill Press
Memoirs of captain of HMS Lion and Beatty's flag captain and later First Sea Lord.

Dorling, Captain Tappell - Endless Story published by Hodder and Stoughton.
Allied destroyer operations during World War 1.

Dittmar, F J and Colledge, J J - British Warships 1914-1919 published by Ian Allan Ltd.
Comprehensive listings of British warships during the Great War.

Ellis, Richard and Walton, Ben - The Royal Navy at Malta (2 vols) published by Maritime Books
Excellent set of Royal Navy ship photographs.

Fisher, John - Memories published by Hodder and Stoughton
Assorting ramblings of the great Admiral.

Friedman, Norman - Battleship Design and Development 1905-1945 published by Mayflower Books.
Good overview of battleship design considerations.

Friedman, Norman - U.S. Battleships - An Illustrated Design History published by Naval Institue Press
Good overview of battleship design considerations.

George, S C - Jutland to Junkyard published by Birlinn Ltd.
The story of the raising of the High Seas Fleet from Scapa Flow.

Goldrick, James - The Kings Ships Were at Sea published by United States Naval Institute.
Excellent account of the first six months in the North sea, until just after Dogger Bank.

Gordon, Andrew - The Rules of the Game - Jutland and British Naval Command published by John Murray Ltd.
Excellent (and often amusing) account of British command failings at Jutland and how they came about.

Grant, Robert M - U-Boats Destroyed published by Periscope Publishing.
Descriptive account of German submarine losses in World War 1.

Grant, Robert M - U-Boats Intelligence published by Periscope Publishing.
The role of intelligence in the U-boat war.

Groner, Erich - German Warships 1815-1945 (2 vols) published by Conway Maritime Press.
Covering German capital ships, cruisers, destroyers, submarines and mine warfare vessels.. Technical details and brief histories.

Halpern, Paul G - A Naval History of World War I published by Naval Institute Press.
Excellent single volume account of WW1 at sea, covering many of the lesser known actions (unlike this site!), not just the famous battles.

Halpern, Paul G - The Naval War in the Mediterranean 1914-1918 published by Naval Institute Press.
Good account of WW1 at sea in the Mediterranean.

Hayward, Roger - Cruisers in Camera published by Sutton Publishing Ltd.
Good pictorial history of Royal Navy cruisers in the 20th century.

Herwig, Holger H - Luxury Fleet - The Imperial German Navy 1868-1918 published by George Allen & Unwin Ltd.
The rise and fall of the High Seas Fleet.

Hodges, Peter - The Big Gun published by Conway Maritime Press.
Battleship main armament from 1860 till the end of the battleship.

Hough, Richard - Admiral of the Fleet - The Life of John Fisher published by The Macmillian Company
Biography of the great and controversial Admiral who was largely responsible for creating the RN of World War 1.

Hough, Richard - The Great War at Sea 1914-18 published by Birlinn Limited
Resonable single volume history concentrating on the main events rather than the lesser theatres.

Hoyt, Edwin P - Defeat at the Falklands published by Robert Hale.
The Story of Graf Spee's squadron including Coronel and the Falklands battles and the exploits of Emden.

Humphreys, Roy - The Dover Patrol 1914-18 published by Sutton Publishing Ltd.
A potted history of the Dover Patrol.

Ireland, Bernard - Jane's Battleships of the 20th Century published by Harper Collins.
Nice looking book, but you won't learn much new if you know much about battleships.

Jellicoe, Admiral Viscount of Scapa -The Grand Fleet 1914-16 published by Cassell and Company Ltd.
Jellicoe's memoirs as commander of the Grand Fleet. Most interesting for his explanations of why he made certain decisions, especially at Jutland.

Jones, Jerry W - U.S. Battleship Operations in World War I published by Naval Institute Press.
The contribution made by US capital ships to the Allied naval effort.

Kemp, Paul - Austro-Hungarian Battleships published by ISO Publications.
Mostly a book of captioned photographs of one of the lesser know battlefleets.

Kemp, Paul - British Warship Losses of the 20th Century published by Sutton Publishing Ltd.
Title says it all, good but a few missing.

Kemp, Paul and Wilson, Michael - Mediterranean Submarines published by Crecy Publishing.
Submarine warfare in the Mediterranean.

Kemp, Paul - Monitors of the Royal Navy published ISO Publications
Photographic guide.

Kemp, Paul - U-Boats Destroyed published by Arms & Armour press
German U-Boat losses during both world wars.

Lambert, Nicholas - Sir John Fisher's Naval Revolution published by University of South Carolina Press
Fisher's impact on pre-war policy and the reasons why, very interesting.

Lambert, Nicholas (editor) - The Submarine Service 1900-1918 published by the Navy Records Society
Well selected collection of documents relating to British submarine service of the period.

Layman, R D - Naval Aviation in the First World War published by Chatham Publishing.
A period of great strides and interesting operations well described.

Le Fleming, H M - Warships of World War 1 published by Ian Allen Ltd.
Combined volume of the various short technical references in this series.

Le Fleming, H M - Warships of World War 1 - Destroyers published by Ian Allan Ltd.
Reference on British and German destroyers.

Leslie, H W - The Royal Mail War Book published by William Heinemann
Some of the actions of the ships of the Royal Mail Steam Packet company which saw service as Armed Merchant Cruisers, troopships, hospital ships and normal merchant roles.

Locher, R K - The Last Gentleman of War published by Stanley Paul and Co. Ltd.
The story of the Emden including the dramatic journey back to Germany during the war of some of the crew which escaped her destruction.

Marder, Arthur - From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow (5 vols) published by Oxford University Press
Comprehensive account of the Royal Navy in the Fisher era.

Marder, Arthur - Portrait of an Admiral - The Life and Papers of Sir Herbert Richmond published by Harvard University Press
Selected papers of the controversial officer.

Marsay, Mark - Bombardment - The Day the East coast Bled published by Great Northern Publishing.
Account of the Scarborough raid, concentrates on the effects on land of the attack.

Massie, Robert - Dreadnought - Britain, Germany and the coming of the Great War published by Pimlico
Readable account of political build-up to World War 1.

McL Ranft, B (editor) - The Beatty Papers (2 volumes) published by Navy Records Society.
Assorted correspondence of the controversial admiral.

Messiner, Dwight R - Find and Destroy published by Naval Institue Press
Good history of anti-submarine warfare in World War 1.

Miller, Geoffrey - Superior Force published by The University of Hull Press.
The story and politics of the escape of Goeben to the Ottoman Empire.

Morris, Douglas - Cruisers of the Royal and Commonwealth Navies published by Maritime Books.
Brief technical and service details but some good pictures.

Murfett, Malcolm (editor) - The First Sea Lords published by Praeger
Excellent series of essays of the impact of First Sea Lords on policy.

Padfield, Peter - Aim Straight published by Hodder and Stoughton Ltd.
Biography of Percy Scott, 'father of modern naval gunnery'.

Parkes, Oscar - British Battleships, Warrior to Vanguard published by Seely Service and Co. Ltd.
'Classic' heavyweight technical history of British battleships.

Patience, Kevin - Königsberg - A German East Africa Raider published by the author.
A readable account of the war history of the German cruiser, some excellent pictures.

Patterson, A Temple (editor) - The Jellicoe Papers (2 volumes) published by Navy Records Society.
Assorted correspondence of the controversial admiral.

Perry, Lawrence - Our Navy in the War published by Charles Scribner's Sons
Dull account of the US Navy in World War 1.

Preston, Anthony - Battleships of World War 1 published by Stackpole Books
Technical details and brief service histories of battleships.

Ritchie, Carson - Q Ships published by Terence Dalton.
The story of the controversial disguised merchant ships used to combat U-Boat attacks.

Roberts, John - Anatomy of the Ship: The Battleship Dreadnought published by Conway Maritime Press
Mainly detailed drawings of the famous ship.

Roberts, John - Battlecruisers published by Chatham Publishing
Excellent technical history of British battlecruisers.

Roberts, John - Warship Monographs: Invincible Class published by Conwat Maritime Press
Short but good technical history.

Roskill, Capt. S W - HMS Warspite published by William Collins & Sons Ltd.
The story of the famous dreadnought that served in both world wars.

Ross, Stewart - Admiral Sir Francis Bridgeman published by Baily's
Biography of the First Sea Lord most famous for his controversial sacking by Churchill.

Sumida, Jon Tetsuro - In Defence of Naval Supremacy - Finance, Technology and British naval policy 1889-1914 published by Routlidge.
The Dreadnought and Battlecruiser revolution and especially the story of the Pollen fire control system.

Sumida, Jon Tetsuro (editor)- The Pollen Papers 1901-1916 published by Navy Records Society
Papers of the pioneer in fire control.

Tarrant, V E - Battlecruiser Invincible published by Arms and Armour Press
Dissapointing history of the first battlecruiser.

Tarrant, V E - Jutland - The German Perspective published by Arms & Armour Press.
The first English language account of the battle based heavily on German sources. Not as detailed as Campbell's but much more readable.

Taylor, John C - German Warships of World War 1 Published by Ian Allen
Short technical details of German warships.

Thomas, Roger D - Dreadnoughts in Camera and Brian Patterson, published by Budding Books
Mostly pictures of British Dreadnoughts at various stages of construction.

Weir, Gary E - Building the Kaisers Navy published by United States Naval Institute.
The story of how Tirpitz transformed the German Navy and how the German naval industry was run.

Wegener, Vice Admiral Wolfgang - The Naval Strategy of the World War published by Naval Institute Press
Critical look at German naval strategy (or lack of it).

Williams, David - Naval Camouflage 1914-1945 published by Chatham Publishing
The story of camouflage in both world wars.

Wilson, H W - Battleships in Action published by Conway Maritime Press.
Two volume history of armoured ships in the 19th century and WW1, interesting but dated.

van der Vat, Dan - The Grand Scuttle published by Waterfront Communications Ltd.
Scuttling of the German fleet as Scapa, also includes an interesting section on the salvage operations afterwards.

van der Vat, Dan - The Ship that Changed the World published by Birlinn
The escape of the German Batllecruiser Goeben to Turkey.

von Hase, Georg - Kiel and Jutland published by Skeffington and Son Ltd.
Memoir of the gunnery officer of SMS Derfflinger.

Yates, Keith - Flawed Victory - Jutland 1916 published by Naval Institute Press
Yet another account of Jutland. Actually very readable and covering the key points well.

Yates, Keith - Graf Spee's Raiders published Leo Cooper.
The story of Emden, Königsberg, Karlsruhe and Spee's squadron.

Young, Filson - With Beatty in the North Sea published by Little, Brown and Company.
The author was a journalist and writer who served on Beatty's staff early in the war.

It is possible to buy literal tonnes of books on the First World War Royal Navy, many of which are well worth reading. It might be useful to have a couple of places to start:

From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow, by Arthur J. Marder.
This five volume collection, published by Oxford University Press between 1961 and 1978 (the revised volume on Jutland) is one of the first serious studies, based on Admiralty documents, of the post-1900 development of the RN and its conduct of the war. Despite its wealth of detail, it is also good reading. However, some of Marder's analysis has been superseded by later research:-
Sir John Fisher's Naval Revolution, by Dr. Nicholas Lambert.
University of South Carolina Press, 1999. This new look at Admiral Fisher's ultimate goals combines study of the British financial picture with the developments in technology to provide what is probably a better picture than Marder's battleship-centric depiction of the Admiralty. Essential reading, in fact.

If you are interested in a detailed, technical, description of British warships, then the series by David K. Brown, former Deputy Chief Naval Architect of the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors is a key source:

Before the Ironclad (Conway Maritime Press, 1990)
describes the transition from sail to steam
Warrior to Dreadnought(Chatham Publishing, 1997)
the ancestry of the ship types, and in some cases the vessels themselves, that served in the First World War
The Grand Fleet (Chatham Publishing, 1999)
The source on the Dreadnought Battlefleet, as well as the supporting warships.

There was one climatic battle during the dreadnought era: Jutland, 31 May 1916. Inconclusive but bloody just the same. A good introduction, if you can find it, is:

Jutland 1916 by John Costello and Terry Hughes (Futura Publications and George Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1976). Well illustrated, well written, it is a very good narration of the Battle.

Once you get a grasp of the Jutland essentials, there are two good recent analyses:

Jutland - An Analysis of the Fighting by John Campbell (Conway Maritime Press, 1986) for what is practially a shell-by-shell description, for those interested in the technicalities and
The Rules of the Game by Dr. Andrew Gordon (John Murry, 1996) to get a better understanding of why the Royal Navy fought and acted as it did.

alexsmith · 08-14-09, 03:26 PM

Beyond the admiral we should humbly reverence

Those who're only appreciate do nothing, those who criticize MAY help improve things. I payed my $50 for DG just like you did - I played a few times and I'm bored. Tell me I have no rights to critisize

Paladin851 · 08-14-09, 06:15 PM

Is SES Jutland perfect ? .....I would have to say no it isn't. However I can't seem to think of any game that is...I have never seen one not a single one in 15 or so years playing these things.Nor can I think of a single game forum where everybody was pleased with the product and most importantly seeing the same things on there monitor when in game. For those that are interested the later part of that comment ...the seeing part was what was at the bottom of the discussion Jdkbph refers to earlier in this thread. We weren't all seeing the issues that some were complaining about.

As to the fan bois I would have to say that Mr.Smith and Jdkbph are devoting every bit as much time and effort to criticizing this title as the fan bois that they detest.Looks to me like two sides of the very same coin.

The manual could have definitely been better....No question about it in my mind.

From what I see SES has paid particular attention to the forum comments and has acted on them when the issues at hand were verifiable and has done so at a considerably higher level then other developers that I have had to deal with but they have there priorities so things may not get done the instant that you bring them up. That to me is critical above and beyond anything else in this discussion.Except of course the original topic of Moltobenny's thread which some of us have managed to drag well and truly off course.

Moltobenny...a trip bye Amazon .com will net you several of the titles that the good Admiral has provided in his list. I recent purchased Cambells "Jutland",Steel and Harts Jutland 1916 " Death in the grey wastes" and Bennetts " Naval battles of the first world war" all of which were very reasonably priced.

Admiral Von Gerlach · 08-14-09, 06:16 PM

I appologize if it seemed i was being too critical of anyone. I just have worked with and studied naval simulations for much of my life, and both Distant Guns and Jutland are the most advanced surface warfare simulations with the best graphics and qualities yet achieved in any form. Everyone has their own experience, and without some historic understanding of the perils, challenges and dangers faced by sailors at sea in that era in the huge lumbering behemoths of ships, with danger at every hand, it can be boring and seem overly complex indeed. For me, to see the detail lavished on the in sim ships, down to the crew, the detail achieved with the dynamics, the accuracy of the risk and action factors balanced by what is playable on most systems, and on and on, I am in awe and very grateful. Finally we may be able to sim some of the battles of that now distant era and achieve an immersion that none of us have been able to achieve.

As I said, we all have our own course to set, and I applogize again for saying what i feel and see should be what you see and feel. Naval sims are complex and require quite a bit of learning. I am sure over time, these two titles will be classics and I hope the foundation for a new generation of naval sims that will allow us even more understanding and knowledge of naval warfare, past and present. I am going to let associates know about this at the Naval War College here and its fellow in the UK, and thank the developers for the care and attention to detail they have achieved with Jutland. I do hope we can someday get offical game disks, I understand the cost factor of download vs packaging, but I still love a Game disk and box and a manual I can hold in my hands.

cheers and salute to all shipmates.

a fine site for information on the pre dreadnought and Dreadnought era: amazingly detailed for all the major powers of the time:

http://www.cityofart.net/bship/frameset7.html
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/oesterreich.html
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/site_nav.html

alexsmith · 08-15-09, 09:34 AM

I think some missunderstanding occurs which I should avoid

First of all - to protect myself - I never said DG is "bad game". It's definitely not

Maybe it's even best of others - but it doesn't yet mean it's perfect

DG is obviously a great sim. I'm really not very big specialist to doubt that - I believe fans! My point is - while DG is great sim it's not such a great GAME it could be. For several fans it's seems to be not significant at all - I was told that "sim is not a game"

If that's true - then I was completely cheated cause I've paid my money for game

Quote:

Storm Eagle Studios is proud to present the updated version of the Wargame Distant Guns!

If DG yet is the game - then I can tell you about it's weaknesses: user interface, camera control options, AI, too few tactics allowed etc. But this seems to be not interesting for anybody here... So - "give back my money!!!"

Admiral Von Gerlach · 08-15-09, 12:09 PM

This thread was created to help a player get information about the era of these sims, so lets keep it on that topic pls. It is a very good request, for that understanding is key to making these sims and any such experience not only interesting but exciting too. thanks

alexsmith · 08-15-09, 01:10 PM

You are absolutely right! Thanks for correcting.

As for the theme - the resume is :
1) Knowing of only historic information is obviously not sufficient to play
2) Game manual does not contain such information
3) Other sources are hard to explore due to they're scattered
For example - Jutland's wiki mentioned here contains several important facts - but which of them are concerned DG also? Absolutely unclear...

IMHO, such complex games like DG and Jutland requires some sort of official wiki - where information is accurate picked and described.

Admiral Von Gerlach · 08-16-09, 12:57 PM

That is a very excellent point. As that era slips inexonerably away into the past, the facts and the truths and the history becomes harder and harder to get. In fact, with the internet we have a sudden revolution of what we can find. When i first began my own research into this, in the libraries of the UK when I lived over there in the 1970's i was very fortunate to find some great sources, but that was quite hard even then. Now there are only a very few men left alive from that time, and the understanding of all of it is hard to come by.

If i have time in a bit, i will try to see what I can find that may help with this for there are some very fine resources now on naval matters of that time but as you say they are not easy to find. I hope maybe there will be a chance for StormEagle to add some of this to their manuals and information, and thanks for making this excellent point. When i found these sims I did not think about this, due to my own past experience with the subject but it is an excellent point to make.

alexsmith · 08-18-09, 03:53 PM

Would be great

But it doesn't cancel the task for game developers - to make sufficient help when game is finished...

Bullethead · 08-18-09, 06:22 PM

I continue to wait for somebody to ask a specific question.

alexsmith · 08-18-09, 07:08 PM

There was one - you probably missed it. It's ok, nevermind. For example: "When will game's manual be updated to contain relevant information? Detailed explanaition of factors affecting accuracy - would be great".
And the second (just for example) - does DG uses some kind of "directors" like Jutland (as mentioned in Wiki)? If it does - what distances are they used at? If it doesn't - is accuracy affected by how many ships fire at target - and how much affected?
Thanks in advance!

MoToM · 08-18-09, 08:48 PM

I have seen BH give just such a detailed explanation of factors affecting gunnery a number of times both here and at Gamesquad.

On the same note an awful lot of detailed information is available on both sites.

The manual I recieved with either game has answered most questions I ever had and the people active have answered all the others.

alexsmith · 08-19-09, 07:02 AM

Dear MoToM! I'm happy to hear you're absolutely satisfied with game manual and forums. This just doesn't mean everybody who isn't are morons

The forums are not suitable very much for collecting knowledges - that's why wiki form were invented. I just offered to mr. Bullethead to create official wiki - hope he will answer soon.

P.S. Strange thing - when I asked him a specific question - he often misses it, but reacts on secondary unimportant replicas. I'll presume to tell that I'm not just a guy roaming these forums - I'm the same customer as everybody other is. And I have my right to issue my opinion - still I'm sure I'm doing this in a delicate manner...

Bullethead · 08-21-09, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexsmith

"When will game's manual be updated to contain relevant information? Detailed explanaition of factors affecting accuracy - would be great".

Dunno. Turn in a suggest on that.

Quote:

And the second (just for example) - does DG uses some kind of "directors" like Jutland (as mentioned in Wiki)?

No. The guns are aimed by their gunners' eyeballs using at best range estimates from the few, small rangefinders on ships in those days. They'd only just invented the dumaresq a couple of years before so even that wasn't in large supply yet.

And no thanks on the Wiki--there already is one. If you want to contribute, talk to Yang over on the Gamesquad forum.

08-14-09, 02:30 PM	#17
Admiral Von Gerlach Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Colorado and California Posts: 726 Downloads: 358 Uploads: 0	My goodness. I have tested both DG and Jutland and find them both cutting edge when it comes to realism, accuracy, truth to history and detail. They are amazing efforts and deserve support not attacks. I am glad to see there is solid support for the developers here. The angry nature of attacks and the lack of validity to them shows to me there are some who would rather criticize than appreciate. It is a HUGE achievemnt they have made and I hope to see more of their work to come to us. I am btw a Fleet Admiral with 30 years of experience at wargaming that started with waterline models of both 1200 and 3000 scale, with the 1200 scale Wargame Society and the Naval Wargames Society of UK, I have commanded in major actions and minor, individual ships, squadrons and Battlefleets for the Royal Navy, the High Seas Fleet, all the major naval powers of the pre dreadnought and dreadnought eras. As for history of this remarkable era: here are some helpful sites and I am happy to help you with specific questions by PM I suggest a remarkable on line resource, Admiral Scheer's Memoir which is online and you can read here: http://www.richthofen.com/scheer/ he led the German Imperial High Seas Fleet at Jutland and I recomend reading from both sides of the conflict as there is a huge amount of info from the Allied side esp the RN and it tends to be biased at times, the German fleet was unit by unit superior to the British, and only the limited Fleet in being doctrine hampered the german efforts from being much more successful and the fleet war from being more dynamic. Jutland was a tactical victory for the German High Seas Fleet but the dominance of the world trade lanes by the Royal Navy slowly starved the Imperial German aspirations and other than some far flung cruiser actions, see in partciular the Emden and the Koningsberg, the war was one of attirtion and there was little chance for the main fleets to engage. Remember tho we model and play out the conflict using ships and dynamics, it was a var of wills, a conflict of world wide proportions and the fleets of the day were the pinacle of the projection of National aspirations at a time when the balance of world power was in question and it was fought out on at the engagments not only of Jutland and the like but also in the day to day duty of the crews and officers aboard ships that were, though powerful, often crude, highly demanding on the men on duty, and very very hard to live aboard even in fair seas. Remember that and the study of the history and the perfecting of your skills at any sim will seem worth the effort. http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/ http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1914-18.htm some books: British Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18 by HMSO, published by Sutton Publishing Ltd. Reprint of the official list of British merchant and warship losses. Conways all the Worlds Fighting Ships 1890-1905, 1906-1921 published by Conway Maritime Press. Two volumes of the excellent reference books which cover most ships of the era. German Warships of World War I published by Greenhill Books. Based on Royal Navy intelligence at the time, like Jane's lacks the benefit of hindsight but still very interesting. Jane's Fighting Ships of Word War I published by Jane's Publishing Ltd. Re-print of the famous reference book from the period. As you would expect for a book published at the time not all that accurate but still interesting. Navy List August 1914, published by HMSO The Navy List at the outbreak of war. Official Naval Dispatches published Fernmoor Publications Ltd. Reprint of Royal Navy official dispatches for 1914. The Naval Who's Who 1917 published by J. B. Hayword & Son. Re-print of 1917 Who's who of Royal Nay and Royal Marine officers plus listing of British personnel lost at Jutland. Alexander, Roy - The Cruise of the Raider Wolf published by The Noontide Press. Account of life as a prisoner on the German disguised raider. Bennet, Geoffry - Coronel and the Falklands published by Birlinn Good account of the two battles. Bennet, Geoffry - Naval Battles of the First World War published by Pan Single volume history of the main events. Bennet, Geoffry - The Battle of Jutland published by Wordsworth Editions Limited. Re-print of what was the first non-official account of Jutland to have access to the suppressed Harper Papers. Breyer, Siegfried - Battleships and Battlecruiser 1905-1970 published by Macdonald Technical details in the period covered. Breyer, Siegfried - Battleships of the World 1905-1970 published by Conway Maritime Press Pictorial account of 'modern' battleships. Brook, Peter - Warships for Export, Armstrong Warships 1867-1927 published by World Ship Society Good account of Armstrong built warships. Brown, D K - The Grand Fleet published by Chatham Publishing. RN warship design from Dreadnought to 1922. Brown, D K - Warrior to Dreadnought published by Chatham Publishing. Excellent technical history of Royal Navy warship technical development from the last days of sail to the "modern" battleship. Burt, R A and Trotter, W P - Battleships of the Grand Fleet published by Arms and Armour Press Good selection of unusual British dreadnought photographs. Burt, R A - British Battleships 1889-1904 published by Naval Institute Press Pre-dreadnoughts era excellent technical and service history details. Burt, R A - British Battleships of World War 1 published by Naval Institute Press Doesn't cover pre-dreadnoughts but excellent technical and service history details. Burt, R A - British Cruisers in World War One published by Arms and Armour Press Photographic guide. Burt, R A - British Destroyers in World War One published by Arms and Armour Press Photographic guide. Burt, R A - German Battleships 1897-1945 published by Arms and Armour Press Photographic guide. Campbell, N J M - Battle Cruisers published by Conway Maritime Press Excellent guide to WW1 Battlecruisers. Campbell, N J M - Jutland - An Analysis of the Fighting published by Conway Maritime Press. Very detailed, almost shell-by-shell account of the battle, very technical and it can be easy to lose sight of the bigger picture of the battle, but still very good. Chalmers, Rear-Admiral W S - The Life and Letters of David, Earl Beatty published by Hodder and Stoughton. A Beatty friendly biography of the Admiral by someone who served under him. Chatfied, Lord E - The Navy and Defence published by Windmill Press Memoirs of captain of HMS Lion and Beatty's flag captain and later First Sea Lord. Dorling, Captain Tappell - Endless Story published by Hodder and Stoughton. Allied destroyer operations during World War 1. Dittmar, F J and Colledge, J J - British Warships 1914-1919 published by Ian Allan Ltd. Comprehensive listings of British warships during the Great War. Ellis, Richard and Walton, Ben - The Royal Navy at Malta (2 vols) published by Maritime Books Excellent set of Royal Navy ship photographs. Fisher, John - Memories published by Hodder and Stoughton Assorting ramblings of the great Admiral. Friedman, Norman - Battleship Design and Development 1905-1945 published by Mayflower Books. Good overview of battleship design considerations. Friedman, Norman - U.S. Battleships - An Illustrated Design History published by Naval Institue Press Good overview of battleship design considerations. George, S C - Jutland to Junkyard published by Birlinn Ltd. The story of the raising of the High Seas Fleet from Scapa Flow. Goldrick, James - The Kings Ships Were at Sea published by United States Naval Institute. Excellent account of the first six months in the North sea, until just after Dogger Bank. Gordon, Andrew - The Rules of the Game - Jutland and British Naval Command published by John Murray Ltd. Excellent (and often amusing) account of British command failings at Jutland and how they came about. Grant, Robert M - U-Boats Destroyed published by Periscope Publishing. Descriptive account of German submarine losses in World War 1. Grant, Robert M - U-Boats Intelligence published by Periscope Publishing. The role of intelligence in the U-boat war. Groner, Erich - German Warships 1815-1945 (2 vols) published by Conway Maritime Press. Covering German capital ships, cruisers, destroyers, submarines and mine warfare vessels.. Technical details and brief histories. Halpern, Paul G - A Naval History of World War I published by Naval Institute Press. Excellent single volume account of WW1 at sea, covering many of the lesser known actions (unlike this site!), not just the famous battles. Halpern, Paul G - The Naval War in the Mediterranean 1914-1918 published by Naval Institute Press. Good account of WW1 at sea in the Mediterranean. Hayward, Roger - Cruisers in Camera published by Sutton Publishing Ltd. Good pictorial history of Royal Navy cruisers in the 20th century. Herwig, Holger H - Luxury Fleet - The Imperial German Navy 1868-1918 published by George Allen & Unwin Ltd. The rise and fall of the High Seas Fleet. Hodges, Peter - The Big Gun published by Conway Maritime Press. Battleship main armament from 1860 till the end of the battleship. Hough, Richard - Admiral of the Fleet - The Life of John Fisher published by The Macmillian Company Biography of the great and controversial Admiral who was largely responsible for creating the RN of World War 1. Hough, Richard - The Great War at Sea 1914-18 published by Birlinn Limited Resonable single volume history concentrating on the main events rather than the lesser theatres. Hoyt, Edwin P - Defeat at the Falklands published by Robert Hale. The Story of Graf Spee's squadron including Coronel and the Falklands battles and the exploits of Emden. Humphreys, Roy - The Dover Patrol 1914-18 published by Sutton Publishing Ltd. A potted history of the Dover Patrol. Ireland, Bernard - Jane's Battleships of the 20th Century published by Harper Collins. Nice looking book, but you won't learn much new if you know much about battleships. Jellicoe, Admiral Viscount of Scapa -The Grand Fleet 1914-16 published by Cassell and Company Ltd. Jellicoe's memoirs as commander of the Grand Fleet. Most interesting for his explanations of why he made certain decisions, especially at Jutland. Jones, Jerry W - U.S. Battleship Operations in World War I published by Naval Institute Press. The contribution made by US capital ships to the Allied naval effort. Kemp, Paul - Austro-Hungarian Battleships published by ISO Publications. Mostly a book of captioned photographs of one of the lesser know battlefleets. Kemp, Paul - British Warship Losses of the 20th Century published by Sutton Publishing Ltd. Title says it all, good but a few missing. Kemp, Paul and Wilson, Michael - Mediterranean Submarines published by Crecy Publishing. Submarine warfare in the Mediterranean. Kemp, Paul - Monitors of the Royal Navy published ISO Publications Photographic guide. Kemp, Paul - U-Boats Destroyed published by Arms & Armour press German U-Boat losses during both world wars. Lambert, Nicholas - Sir John Fisher's Naval Revolution published by University of South Carolina Press Fisher's impact on pre-war policy and the reasons why, very interesting. Lambert, Nicholas (editor) - The Submarine Service 1900-1918 published by the Navy Records Society Well selected collection of documents relating to British submarine service of the period. Layman, R D - Naval Aviation in the First World War published by Chatham Publishing. A period of great strides and interesting operations well described. Le Fleming, H M - Warships of World War 1 published by Ian Allen Ltd. Combined volume of the various short technical references in this series. Le Fleming, H M - Warships of World War 1 - Destroyers published by Ian Allan Ltd. Reference on British and German destroyers. Leslie, H W - The Royal Mail War Book published by William Heinemann Some of the actions of the ships of the Royal Mail Steam Packet company which saw service as Armed Merchant Cruisers, troopships, hospital ships and normal merchant roles. Locher, R K - The Last Gentleman of War published by Stanley Paul and Co. Ltd. The story of the Emden including the dramatic journey back to Germany during the war of some of the crew which escaped her destruction. Marder, Arthur - From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow (5 vols) published by Oxford University Press Comprehensive account of the Royal Navy in the Fisher era. Marder, Arthur - Portrait of an Admiral - The Life and Papers of Sir Herbert Richmond published by Harvard University Press Selected papers of the controversial officer. Marsay, Mark - Bombardment - The Day the East coast Bled published by Great Northern Publishing. Account of the Scarborough raid, concentrates on the effects on land of the attack. Massie, Robert - Dreadnought - Britain, Germany and the coming of the Great War published by Pimlico Readable account of political build-up to World War 1. McL Ranft, B (editor) - The Beatty Papers (2 volumes) published by Navy Records Society. Assorted correspondence of the controversial admiral. Messiner, Dwight R - Find and Destroy published by Naval Institue Press Good history of anti-submarine warfare in World War 1. Miller, Geoffrey - Superior Force published by The University of Hull Press. The story and politics of the escape of Goeben to the Ottoman Empire. Morris, Douglas - Cruisers of the Royal and Commonwealth Navies published by Maritime Books. Brief technical and service details but some good pictures. Murfett, Malcolm (editor) - The First Sea Lords published by Praeger Excellent series of essays of the impact of First Sea Lords on policy. Padfield, Peter - Aim Straight published by Hodder and Stoughton Ltd. Biography of Percy Scott, 'father of modern naval gunnery'. Parkes, Oscar - British Battleships, Warrior to Vanguard published by Seely Service and Co. Ltd. 'Classic' heavyweight technical history of British battleships. Patience, Kevin - Königsberg - A German East Africa Raider published by the author. A readable account of the war history of the German cruiser, some excellent pictures. Patterson, A Temple (editor) - The Jellicoe Papers (2 volumes) published by Navy Records Society. Assorted correspondence of the controversial admiral. Perry, Lawrence - Our Navy in the War published by Charles Scribner's Sons Dull account of the US Navy in World War 1. Preston, Anthony - Battleships of World War 1 published by Stackpole Books Technical details and brief service histories of battleships. Ritchie, Carson - Q Ships published by Terence Dalton. The story of the controversial disguised merchant ships used to combat U-Boat attacks. Roberts, John - Anatomy of the Ship: The Battleship Dreadnought published by Conway Maritime Press Mainly detailed drawings of the famous ship. Roberts, John - Battlecruisers published by Chatham Publishing Excellent technical history of British battlecruisers. Roberts, John - Warship Monographs: Invincible Class published by Conwat Maritime Press Short but good technical history. Roskill, Capt. S W - HMS Warspite published by William Collins & Sons Ltd. The story of the famous dreadnought that served in both world wars. Ross, Stewart - Admiral Sir Francis Bridgeman published by Baily's Biography of the First Sea Lord most famous for his controversial sacking by Churchill. Sumida, Jon Tetsuro - In Defence of Naval Supremacy - Finance, Technology and British naval policy 1889-1914 published by Routlidge. The Dreadnought and Battlecruiser revolution and especially the story of the Pollen fire control system. Sumida, Jon Tetsuro (editor)- The Pollen Papers 1901-1916 published by Navy Records Society Papers of the pioneer in fire control. Tarrant, V E - Battlecruiser Invincible published by Arms and Armour Press Dissapointing history of the first battlecruiser. Tarrant, V E - Jutland - The German Perspective published by Arms & Armour Press. The first English language account of the battle based heavily on German sources. Not as detailed as Campbell's but much more readable. Taylor, John C - German Warships of World War 1 Published by Ian Allen Short technical details of German warships. Thomas, Roger D - Dreadnoughts in Camera and Brian Patterson, published by Budding Books Mostly pictures of British Dreadnoughts at various stages of construction. Weir, Gary E - Building the Kaisers Navy published by United States Naval Institute. The story of how Tirpitz transformed the German Navy and how the German naval industry was run. Wegener, Vice Admiral Wolfgang - The Naval Strategy of the World War published by Naval Institute Press Critical look at German naval strategy (or lack of it). Williams, David - Naval Camouflage 1914-1945 published by Chatham Publishing The story of camouflage in both world wars. Wilson, H W - Battleships in Action published by Conway Maritime Press. Two volume history of armoured ships in the 19th century and WW1, interesting but dated. van der Vat, Dan - The Grand Scuttle published by Waterfront Communications Ltd. Scuttling of the German fleet as Scapa, also includes an interesting section on the salvage operations afterwards. van der Vat, Dan - The Ship that Changed the World published by Birlinn The escape of the German Batllecruiser Goeben to Turkey. von Hase, Georg - Kiel and Jutland published by Skeffington and Son Ltd. Memoir of the gunnery officer of SMS Derfflinger. Yates, Keith - Flawed Victory - Jutland 1916 published by Naval Institute Press Yet another account of Jutland. Actually very readable and covering the key points well. Yates, Keith - Graf Spee's Raiders published Leo Cooper. The story of Emden, Königsberg, Karlsruhe and Spee's squadron. Young, Filson - With Beatty in the North Sea published by Little, Brown and Company. The author was a journalist and writer who served on Beatty's staff early in the war. It is possible to buy literal tonnes of books on the First World War Royal Navy, many of which are well worth reading. It might be useful to have a couple of places to start: From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow, by Arthur J. Marder. This five volume collection, published by Oxford University Press between 1961 and 1978 (the revised volume on Jutland) is one of the first serious studies, based on Admiralty documents, of the post-1900 development of the RN and its conduct of the war. Despite its wealth of detail, it is also good reading. However, some of Marder's analysis has been superseded by later research:- Sir John Fisher's Naval Revolution, by Dr. Nicholas Lambert. University of South Carolina Press, 1999. This new look at Admiral Fisher's ultimate goals combines study of the British financial picture with the developments in technology to provide what is probably a better picture than Marder's battleship-centric depiction of the Admiralty. Essential reading, in fact. If you are interested in a detailed, technical, description of British warships, then the series by David K. Brown, former Deputy Chief Naval Architect of the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors is a key source: Before the Ironclad (Conway Maritime Press, 1990) describes the transition from sail to steam Warrior to Dreadnought(Chatham Publishing, 1997) the ancestry of the ship types, and in some cases the vessels themselves, that served in the First World War The Grand Fleet (Chatham Publishing, 1999) The source on the Dreadnought Battlefleet, as well as the supporting warships. There was one climatic battle during the dreadnought era: Jutland, 31 May 1916. Inconclusive but bloody just the same. A good introduction, if you can find it, is: Jutland 1916 by John Costello and Terry Hughes (Futura Publications and George Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1976). Well illustrated, well written, it is a very good narration of the Battle. Once you get a grasp of the Jutland essentials, there are two good recent analyses: Jutland - An Analysis of the Fighting by John Campbell (Conway Maritime Press, 1986) for what is practially a shell-by-shell description, for those interested in the technicalities and The Rules of the Game by Dr. Andrew Gordon (John Murry, 1996) to get a better understanding of why the Royal Navy fought and acted as it did. __________________ Erlaubnis an Bord zu kommen.

08-14-09, 06:15 PM	#19
Paladin851 Swabbie Join Date: May 2007 Location: Washington state,USA Posts: 7 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Is SES Jutland perfect ? .....I would have to say no it isn't. However I can't seem to think of any game that is...I have never seen one not a single one in 15 or so years playing these things.Nor can I think of a single game forum where everybody was pleased with the product and most importantly seeing the same things on there monitor when in game. For those that are interested the later part of that comment ...the seeing part was what was at the bottom of the discussion Jdkbph refers to earlier in this thread. We weren't all seeing the issues that some were complaining about. As to the fan bois I would have to say that Mr.Smith and Jdkbph are devoting every bit as much time and effort to criticizing this title as the fan bois that they detest.Looks to me like two sides of the very same coin. The manual could have definitely been better....No question about it in my mind. From what I see SES has paid particular attention to the forum comments and has acted on them when the issues at hand were verifiable and has done so at a considerably higher level then other developers that I have had to deal with but they have there priorities so things may not get done the instant that you bring them up. That to me is critical above and beyond anything else in this discussion.Except of course the original topic of Moltobenny's thread which some of us have managed to drag well and truly off course. Moltobenny...a trip bye Amazon .com will net you several of the titles that the good Admiral has provided in his list. I recent purchased Cambells "Jutland",Steel and Harts Jutland 1916 " Death in the grey wastes" and Bennetts " Naval battles of the first world war" all of which were very reasonably priced. Last edited by Paladin851; 08-14-09 at 06:31 PM.

08-14-09, 06:16 PM	#20
Admiral Von Gerlach Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Colorado and California Posts: 726 Downloads: 358 Uploads: 0	I appologize if it seemed i was being too critical of anyone. I just have worked with and studied naval simulations for much of my life, and both Distant Guns and Jutland are the most advanced surface warfare simulations with the best graphics and qualities yet achieved in any form. Everyone has their own experience, and without some historic understanding of the perils, challenges and dangers faced by sailors at sea in that era in the huge lumbering behemoths of ships, with danger at every hand, it can be boring and seem overly complex indeed. For me, to see the detail lavished on the in sim ships, down to the crew, the detail achieved with the dynamics, the accuracy of the risk and action factors balanced by what is playable on most systems, and on and on, I am in awe and very grateful. Finally we may be able to sim some of the battles of that now distant era and achieve an immersion that none of us have been able to achieve. As I said, we all have our own course to set, and I applogize again for saying what i feel and see should be what you see and feel. Naval sims are complex and require quite a bit of learning. I am sure over time, these two titles will be classics and I hope the foundation for a new generation of naval sims that will allow us even more understanding and knowledge of naval warfare, past and present. I am going to let associates know about this at the Naval War College here and its fellow in the UK, and thank the developers for the care and attention to detail they have achieved with Jutland. I do hope we can someday get offical game disks, I understand the cost factor of download vs packaging, but I still love a Game disk and box and a manual I can hold in my hands. cheers and salute to all shipmates. a fine site for information on the pre dreadnought and Dreadnought era: amazingly detailed for all the major powers of the time: http://www.cityofart.net/bship/frameset7.html http://www.cityofart.net/bship/oesterreich.html http://www.cityofart.net/bship/site_nav.html __________________ Erlaubnis an Bord zu kommen. Last edited by Admiral Von Gerlach; 08-14-09 at 11:33 PM.

08-15-09, 12:09 PM	#22
Admiral Von Gerlach Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Colorado and California Posts: 726 Downloads: 358 Uploads: 0	This thread was created to help a player get information about the era of these sims, so lets keep it on that topic pls. It is a very good request, for that understanding is key to making these sims and any such experience not only interesting but exciting too. thanks __________________ Erlaubnis an Bord zu kommen.

08-16-09, 12:57 PM	#24
Admiral Von Gerlach Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Colorado and California Posts: 726 Downloads: 358 Uploads: 0	That is a very excellent point. As that era slips inexonerably away into the past, the facts and the truths and the history becomes harder and harder to get. In fact, with the internet we have a sudden revolution of what we can find. When i first began my own research into this, in the libraries of the UK when I lived over there in the 1970's i was very fortunate to find some great sources, but that was quite hard even then. Now there are only a very few men left alive from that time, and the understanding of all of it is hard to come by. If i have time in a bit, i will try to see what I can find that may help with this for there are some very fine resources now on naval matters of that time but as you say they are not easy to find. I hope maybe there will be a chance for StormEagle to add some of this to their manuals and information, and thanks for making this excellent point. When i found these sims I did not think about this, due to my own past experience with the subject but it is an excellent point to make. __________________ Erlaubnis an Bord zu kommen.

08-01-09, 11:11 AM	#16
Zakalwe Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Eckernförde, S-H, Germany Posts: 113 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Well JD, if anyone disagreeing with your opinion is a fan-boy in your regard, so be it. I just wanted to point out, that you were not telling the truth when you said critizism is not tolerated on Gamesquad. This would IMO include Moderation and especially constant deleting of such things like you see it on several company owned game boards. Nothing like this happens on Gamesquad. If other users are disagreeing with yours and others view, well this is (virtual) life. And again, BH has explained what influences gunnery numerous times. Smoke, sun, visibility, position of the directors on the ship, wind and what-not. He said that ships have a 3D interieur of armour, machinery, bulkheads etc. on which a AP shell could explode or not. He said that HE shells aren`t penetrating any serious armour. Could there be some finetuning at times? Of course. I especially have some doubts about the DDs, which IMO last too long at times. But if you`ve read Campbell, you got a pretty good idea, what a shell does and from what I`ve read from SES, they tried very hard to simulate these things. And it works not bad with ships like CLs and bigger. I simply think it is very unfair to describe SES and especially BH like you did. As I said before, via email, PN and the ticket system I had several contacts with the guys and they for sure DO listen. Many many things we suggested back in the DG 1.0 days made its way into Jutland. Does it have still room for improvement? For sure. If your suggestion is reasonable, I bet it will be considered. We (again) simply have to agree to disagree. As for WitP, well, if I only was interested one iota into that theatre. I haven`t even bought SH4 although it`s available for 10 € and if my Il-2 online squad is flying there, I take a vacation. Simply not my piece of cake. Greets Z.

08-14-09, 03:26 PM	#18
alexsmith Loader Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 81 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Beyond the admiral we should humbly reverence Those who're only appreciate do nothing, those who criticize MAY help improve things. I payed my $50 for DG just like you did - I played a few times and I'm bored. Tell me I have no rights to critisize

08-15-09, 01:10 PM	#23
alexsmith Loader Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 81 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You are absolutely right! Thanks for correcting. As for the theme - the resume is : 1) Knowing of only historic information is obviously not sufficient to play 2) Game manual does not contain such information 3) Other sources are hard to explore due to they're scattered For example - Jutland's wiki mentioned here contains several important facts - but which of them are concerned DG also? Absolutely unclear... IMHO, such complex games like DG and Jutland requires some sort of official wiki - where information is accurate picked and described.

08-18-09, 03:53 PM	#25
alexsmith Loader Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 81 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Would be great But it doesn't cancel the task for game developers - to make sufficient help when game is finished...

08-18-09, 06:22 PM	#26
Bullethead Storm Eagle Studios Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wakefield, LA Posts: 284 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I continue to wait for somebody to ask a specific question. __________________ -Bullethead Storm Eagle Studios In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria

08-18-09, 07:08 PM	#27
alexsmith Loader Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 81 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	There was one - you probably missed it. It's ok, nevermind. For example: "When will game's manual be updated to contain relevant information? Detailed explanaition of factors affecting accuracy - would be great". And the second (just for example) - does DG uses some kind of "directors" like Jutland (as mentioned in Wiki)? If it does - what distances are they used at? If it doesn't - is accuracy affected by how many ships fire at target - and how much affected? Thanks in advance!

08-18-09, 08:48 PM	#28
MoToM Watch Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 29 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I have seen BH give just such a detailed explanation of factors affecting gunnery a number of times both here and at Gamesquad. On the same note an awful lot of detailed information is available on both sites. The manual I recieved with either game has answered most questions I ever had and the people active have answered all the others. __________________ "My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack…" Admiral Stepan O. Makarov

08-19-09, 07:02 AM	#29
alexsmith Loader Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 81 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Dear MoToM! I'm happy to hear you're absolutely satisfied with game manual and forums. This just doesn't mean everybody who isn't are morons The forums are not suitable very much for collecting knowledges - that's why wiki form were invented. I just offered to mr. Bullethead to create official wiki - hope he will answer soon. P.S. Strange thing - when I asked him a specific question - he often misses it, but reacts on secondary unimportant replicas. I'll presume to tell that I'm not just a guy roaming these forums - I'm the same customer as everybody other is. And I have my right to issue my opinion - still I'm sure I'm doing this in a delicate manner...