Gunnery and Campaign Questions

[Xxzard]

Hello all, first post on this forum, and I'd like to congratulate the Jutland team for making a game that really stands out as being playable and good looking at the same time. Now admittedly, I have seen better graphics, but the scale of events, number of ship classes, and general atmosphere is fantastic-- so bravo for that!

To the questions:
To what degree (if any) do the following effect gunnery accuracy?
-funnel smoke
-position of sun in sky
-nation-> is one side definitively better?

In my first campaign, as the British, I won a highly decisive series of naval battles early on, depriving the High Seas Fleet of almost everything but 16 remaining battleships. We have also captured far more shipping heading towards Germany than they have captured of ours. Its still early on in the campaign, but I'm somewhat wondering why the victory level tracker says German++ given the current situation. Do I have to fight to the end of the year to see a change in this level?

Thanks

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Xxzard

Hello all, first post on this forum, and I'd like to congratulate the Jutland team for making a game that really stands out as being playable and good looking at the same time. Now admittedly, I have seen better graphics, but the scale of events, number of ship classes, and general atmosphere is fantastic-- so bravo for that!

To the questions:
To what degree (if any) do the following effect gunnery accuracy?
-funnel smoke
-position of sun in sky
-nation-> is one side definitively better?

In my first campaign, as the British, I won a highly decisive series of naval battles early on, depriving the High Seas Fleet of almost everything but 16 remaining battleships. We have also captured far more shipping heading towards Germany than they have captured of ours. Its still early on in the campaign, but I'm somewhat wondering why the victory level tracker says German++ given the current situation. Do I have to fight to the end of the year to see a change in this level?

Thanks

Funnel Smoke (Also all sorts of smoke) - Yes, IIRC Bullethead says the game makes an internal map of the smoke around the battle area and it would effect gunnery and ship sighting in the way.

Sun - Yes, would effect gunnery for the side looking at it. Also, if the sun is below the horizon and silhouettes the other side it will improve accuracy and sightings.

Nation - The Germans are generally more accurate. Though IIRC the British get better as the battle drags on.

That last bit about the campaign victory level is a known bug, it usually says the complete opposite of who's actually winning...

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by Xxzard

Hello all, first post on this forum

Welcome aboard! New guy buys the drinks

I think most of your questions have been answered, but if you want more details, speak up.

I'll elaborate a bit on the "is one side better?" though...

There are 2 options that have a HUGE effect on this. These are found at the top of the simulation controls menu and are called "Advanced Critical Hits" (ACHs). They default to the off position. If you turn them on, they make the British considerably weaker.

One of these ACHs gives British ships a 20% chance of blowing up if they receive a penetrating hit on a turret. There's a long discussion on why we think this is historically accurate over in the wiki, but as noted, you don't have to play with this turned on. Note that 1st off, it only affects ships with turrets (ACs and bigger). Second, the shell has to penetrate the turret armor, and then only 1 in 5 such penetrations cause the explosion.

If this option is turned off, ships of all sizes on both sides will still blow up periodically due to normal magazine critical hits. The above setting is an extra likelihood of explosion for British ships.

The other ACH makes certain types of AP shells fragile. This makes them very unlikely to penetrate heavy armor and makes penetrating even medium armor somewhat doubtful. It affects all British guns larger than 6", and also some old German guns that fire old-type shells. This really pulls the fangs of the big British guns. There's also a lot of discussion on why we think this is historically accurate, but again, you don't have to play this way.

Otherwise, the fleets have various strengths and weaknesses. In general, it's like this:

Germans:

• Usually better damage control, so repair damage during battles more quickly than the British.
• Capital ships are somewhat more accurate, especially at the start of battles.
• Newer CLs have gun directors so can hit better at longer ranges then British CLs.
• Significantly fewer of all types of ships.
• Smaller guns and shorter ranges than their British equivalents.
• Earlier dreadnoughts are slower than their British equivalents, so the HSF can't outrun the GF even without the predreadnoughts along.
• Many ships and subs are capable of laying mines.
• In the campaign, the Germans have the strategic burden of the offensive.

British:

• Lots more of every type of ship.
• About 1/2 of British capital ships have bigger guns with longer ranges than the entire German fleet.
• Almost all British DDs have more and bigger guns than nearly all German DDs.
• Bigger torpedoes with higher speed and longer range.
• Lots of ACs, which have to stay clear of capital ships but completely own German light forces.
• Very few minelayers.
• In the campaign, can remain on the defensive.

[jdkbph]

You might also want to mention the Dreyer vs Argo Fire control system thing....

[Xxzard]

Thanks for the explanations on the gunnery accuracy, especially on things such as smoke and sun, because I have noticed that before, but it was it was difficult to say for sure. I am glad that is as it was historically.

I also read somewhere that German rangefinders and directors were much better at quickly finding the range. On the other hand British employ more powerful rangefinders, but they were slower, so that is accurate.

For the campaign, I am playing with all historical options on, so I have experienced the woes of weak British shells and the tendency to blow up. In the decisive engagement against the German fleet, I engaged the German scouting forces in the morning, just before sunrise with both the British Grand Fleet and BC force. Losses were high, 5 BC's lost and 1 Super Dreadnought for the destruction of their 4 BC's, but With the sun coming up, I outnumbered their BB fleet significantly, so they began to retreat. There the slowness of their old pre-dreadnoughts was devastating, as all seven were destroyed for the loss of one 12inch BB.

I would also agree with the assesment about the AC's, with the German BC's destroyed in that battle, British AC's are running free and have been
obliterating remaining enemy light forces.

One more question: do AV's have any special ability modeled in the game or are they there for historical accuracy only?

[MoToM]

Just for accuracy, plus they seriously slow down your fleets campaign map speed.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Xxzard

One more question: do AV's have any special ability modeled in the game or are they there for historical accuracy only?

I don't think so. I thought that maybe they have a higher sighting range on the campaign map but Bullethead will have to comment on that.

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

I don't think so. I thought that maybe they have a higher sighting range on the campaign map but Bullethead will have to comment on that.

I honestly don't know. When it became evident that we weren't going to get launchable airplanes into the game directly, there was some talk of AVs increasing the daylight spotting range of their TFs on the campaign map. However, I don't know what, if anything, Norm did along those lines. So you'd have to ask him.

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by jdkbph

You might also want to mention the Dreyer vs Argo Fire control system thing....

Well, that's of essentially no consequence in WW1. All the Brits except Queen Mary had Dreyer stuff, and all the Germans had Dreyer-type stuff.

What this all boils down to in game terms is that Queen Mary, alone amongst the initial Brit BCs, shoots as well as the Brit BBs, while the other initial Brit BCs' accuracy sucks compared to both Brit BBs and all the Germans. "Refit" and "Repair", when they arrive late in 1916, also shoot as well as Brit BBs.

[jdkbph]

Hmmm... last I recall it had been established with overwhelming empirical evidence that, in game terms, the Argo system was far superior to the Dreyer system... such that a Dreyer equipped Brit BB, even one of equal or greater firepower and tactical position, was at a distinct disadvantage to any FC equipped German BB.

I also recall that this, according to SES, was absolutely the way it was and therefore the way the game was designed.

Are you saying now that this has been "adjusted"?

And yes... I am curious for good reason. If this has been fixed it may just make this game playable (IMH and Uninformed O of course).

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by jdkbph

Hmmm... last I recall it had been established with overwhelming empirical evidence that, in game terms, the Argo system was far superior to the Dreyer system... such that a Dreyer equipped Brit BB, even one of equal or greater firepower and tactical position, was at a distinct disadvantage to any FC equipped German BB.

You seem to have misunderstood.

Everybody on both sides (except Queen Mary) uses a Dreyer-type system. That was the standard type of fire control system in WW1. It was, of course, only called a "Dreyer Table" in the RN, but everybody's gear was directly analogous. However, it's limits were known and by late WW1, Pollen-type systems were becoming seen as necessary, so that everybody switched to Pollen-type systems shortly after WW1. Pollen-type systems were thus standard by WW2.

Because everybody uses a Dreyer-type system, you don't have the situation you describe, of Dreyer-equipped ships being hosed by "Argo-equipped" ships. The differences in gunnery in Jutland are due to different training standards, different types of rangefinders, and ship design, etc. This is what makes Germans get on target faster and shoot slightly better than RN BBs, and why RN BCs (except Queen Mary) can't shoot very well. Neither can ships with funnels ahead of the foremast, or too few guns for adequate spotting.

I also recall that this, according to SES, was absolutely the way it was and therefore the way the game was designed.

Yup.

Are you saying now that this has been "adjusted"?

And yes... I am curious for good reason. If this has been fixed it may just make this game playable (IMH and Uninformed O of course).

I think rather that you're misinformed. The "problem" you mention doesn't exist and never has. All the various categories of ships mentioned above shoot very close to their historical averages over the long run, but for short periods can shoot rather worse or better, which is realistic because that also happened.

[jdkbph]

DELETE DELETE DELETE


OK I give up. It's your game... you win.

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by jdkbph

DELETE DELETE DELETE


OK I give up. It's your game... you win.

Now don't go away mad. We've been friends longer than I care to remember.

Seriously, just because we're somehow not communicating here doesn't mean you don't have a legit gripe. We've never said the game is perfect.

But it's obvious we're talking past each other, or not speaking the same language, or whatever. So what, specifically, in game terms, do you have a problem with? Until I even know what you're mad about, how the Hell do you expect me to answer your question?

[Trygvasson]

AT LAST a game that explores a chapter in the history of warfare with an absolutely massive amount of what-if's - and with the greatest possible broadside weight ever. These ships, these BEAUTIFUL, loved and cherished creatures of uncompromising destruction have been my keen interest since the days of GNB5.

I sincerely thank the Gods Above, aka the Programmers, for not making this into an 'action-packed FPS' or some other stupid marketing idea. Historically accurate to the point of including brittle AP shells and the like. One would always like more, of course, but that's what wishlists are for.

Phew! Now, down to the nitty gritty:
1. It seems the ships stop accumulating damage after they've reached 'sinking' status - I had half the Hochseeflotte blasting away point blank at a destroyer for 12 minutes, and it still stubbornly took all that time to sink. This is a major problem for me since (as well they should) my fleet keeps targeting the ship until she's well and truly gone.
2. More info! Range circles for primary/secondary guns, visual detection ranges, starshell ranges, torpedo ranges, acceleration rates(aren't they a bit quick?!), armor penetration/distance - and that's only what I can't stop thinking about!
3. I find myself micromanaging division speed a lot. I know a LOT has been accomplished regarding fleet maneuvers, and it's a real joy to behold as I create chaos from order - and then back to order - but why a division would want to keep sailing at 4kts after the ship that slowed them down has sunk, I don't know.

That's it for now - will provide some AAR's when I get some more experience. I'm still on Jan 5th, and already the Harwich Force is destroyed, and I've had an inconclusive meeting with Fisher's favourites...

[Xxzard]

The only way a sinking ship goes down faster is a magazine explosion, to my understanding. You can order the ships to cease fire, but all locally controlled guns will continue to fire.

The weather report shows visibility, and visual detection is I suppose automatic at that range. You can check the torpedo range by taking a look at the ship status report/menu thing and selecting one of the torpedo launchers. One problem I have noticed is that it seems when ships are near the edge of short/long range settings, the torpedos are launched on short setting and run out of 'gas' before reaching the target, when launching on long range would have assured at least reaching the target.

Getting a large fleet to behave in an orderly, no, even reasonable way can be difficult. It is something of a gripe with the game that the ships aren't somewhat more intuitive about that. No ships have any individual initiative except for avoiding torps and collisions (which is actually a good feature) although that itself can lead to big organizational problems.

All in all I think the control scheme is OK though, once you get to know it.