US Politics Thread 2021-24

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

"A small amount of women discover"...? We've been through that argument before here.

You mean: "a bunch of male boomers without any understanding and knowledge about women have discussed this."

Contraceptives fail (and Judge Thomas has already made clear that they are on his target list), also pregnancy tests fail (especially during the very early phases). And yes, that includes those tests undertaken by doctors and medical personell. They are based on hormone levels, and those are subject to natural fluctuations. Even after six weeks the levels of the tested hormone quite often are well within the range that is common for non-pregnancies.
Detection with other means (like ultrasound) by other means is also difficult during the very early phases, because the heap of cells is hard to differentiate from a woman's body that early on.
It's quite interesting to see someone that uninformed calling others "stupid people"

And as much as you want to lie to yourself about it: an abortion is not a haircut. You don't waltz into a shop, leave your baby/hair behind and leave as if nothing has happened. An abortion leaves a severe strain on both body and mind with long lasting effects (which is the reason why the vast majority of women who had an abortion never even considers having a second one).

Following your approach ("blame the women!") would mean that all women would have to do was to say "no". Ask any woman you want how well that works...

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

As a reformed right winger(my saving grace is I was not nor am I a religious type) I can translate some statements I have seen on here, social media etc. Almost like these people are parroting talk radio and Fox News lol.


Statement: "The Supreme Court did not ban abortion, they just sent it back to the states."

Translation from Wingnut speech and splainin' into English:


“Really, it is okay to violate a persons autonomy as long it’s the state government doing it … not the federal government...and they have a vagina .” lol


Remember that time in history when “states rights” was used to justify the violation of autonomy of black people (and others)? I.e slavery. Pepperidge Farm remembers.


Furthermore, these are same people screaming, fighting against mandates last year over the injection. I was one of them, I put my career and a lot on the line refusing to be required to take the injection and we ultimately won. Also been vindicated (as knew we would since) by respected entities such as New England Journal of medicine. Was never against the injection, simply being forced was wrong , just as it is wrong to prevent a woman from terminating a pregnancy is she desires.

Now, unlike many others on that side of the issue, I am not contradicting myself. As I said then, body autonomy is a right and allowing states to decide if they can violate women's autonomy is wrong. The so called originalists on the court, went full on activist in order to push their personal religious views into public policy. They lost all moral and intellectual high ground. I nearly went blind today reading to obtuse ignorance in the majority opinion today.

The original court back in 73 even stated in their ruling that the right to abortion is not absolute and must be balanced against the government's interests in protecting women's health and prenatal life.

You said it yourself, you refused the shot mandate due to Federal government overreach, this decision at it's core is just the flip side of those mandates.

[em2nought]

What a gift to the democrats.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by em2nought

What a gift to the democrats.

And there's that, yeah. It seems GOP is always so concentrated on getting something done that when they do achieve it, they have no idea what to do with it.


I'm fully expecting a 'brexit regret' effect when people in the strictest red states start to realise what this means for them. After that, it gets worse when they realise that this will have the largest impact on them only; liberals in blue states will be largely unaffected by this. Hell, blue states will most likely strenghten their abortion right laws.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Hell, blue states will most likely strenghten their abortion right laws.

Bingo, most already have laws and have gone so far as wanting to add it to their State's Constitution so it can't be used as a political weapon in the future. But are those laws protecting providers or the woman? I'd wager others will soon follow regardless of political party. It will take time but I think it'll eventually happen. Most people do want the option made available but they also want limitations.

Not even Finland gives the woman the absolute right to an abortion. There are certain criteria which must be met and approved by one or two doctors and must be done at a state run facility. Otherwise I suppose she has to travel to Germany.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I also wanted to ask this, if Roe V. Wade was a ruling made by the SCOTUS does that actually make the ability for women to get an abortion a "constitutional right"? Was that right ever codified into law in either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? Because if it wasn't then it's not a constitutional right at all.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Not even Finland gives the woman the absolute right to an abortion. There are certain criteria which must be met and approved by one or two doctors and must be done at a state run facility. Otherwise I suppose she has to travel to Germany.

Not sure why you're bringing this up. The issue isn't limitless abortion, but the other extreme where a state can now take that choice away from women and force them to carry a child. Uncle Billy Bob raped his 12yo niece? Congrats, you're going to be a mom!


As for Finland, anyone can get an abortion up until 12 weeks. After that, up to 24 weeks, depending of criteria.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Not sure why you're bringing this up. The issue isn't limitless abortion, but the other extreme where a state can now take that choice away from women and force them to carry a child. Uncle Billy Bob raped his 12yo niece? Congrats, you're going to be a mom!


As for Finland, anyone can get an abortion up until 12 weeks. After that, up to 24 weeks, depending of criteria.

But over here it is about limitless abortion. People don't like limitless abortions in their states. Many think what Virgina allows is utterly disgusting barbaric and inhuman and they don't want it in their State.


"Depending on criteria" like I said even in Finland a woman does not have an absolute right to do whatever, whenever she pleases. She will likely have to travel to another country to achieve her goal if she fails to meet the criteria. The fact is, your State does have limitations which was my point. Right or wrong isn't for me to decide whats best for Finland, that's your job. As an American I couldn't care less how you govern your nation it's not even a blip on my RADAR.

According to CNN Alabama has what CNN called the most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the nation.. ANTI-ABORTION!

In Alabama, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of June 24, 2022:

• A patient must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage the patient from having an abortion, and then wait 48 hours before the procedure is provided.
• Health plans offered in the state’s health exchange under the Affordable Care Act can only cover abortion in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
• The use of telemedicine to administer medication abortion is prohibited.
• The parent of a minor must consent before an abortion is provided.
• Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
• A patient must undergo an ultrasound before obtaining an abortion; the provider must offer the patient the option to view the image.
• Abortion is banned, except in cases of life endangerment and health of the patient.
• The state requires abortion clinics to meet unnecessary and burdensome standards related to their physical plant, equipment and staffing.

It's apparently obvious that your Billy Bob scenario, claims of lives destroyed, death, suffering is a bit extreme and uncalled for.

[mapuc]

Isn't there members here who is female.

I would love to hear their opinion on this subject-So far it has only been us men who have discussed it.
(Have read a lot among my Danish and Swedish friends on FB-But no Americans)

Markus

[Moonlight]

I'm wondering if a pregnant woman who didn't want a baby at that time will file a lawsuit against the male who impregnated her and set off a chain reaction of similar unplanned baby lawsuits across the USA, even if it's consensual intercourse that doesn't mean she wants to get bloody pregnant does it, I think some one's going to be paying for this accidental pregnancy and it won't be her.

Do you have laws over there that protects the woman from being violated (not sure if that's the right word) in this way, I'm looking at this and thinking those bleeding heart lawyers will be jumping all over this one in there quest to make some extra money.

It's time to invest in one of these new fangled sex dolls me thinks just in case something like this pops up. "pun is not intentional"

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

But over here it is about limitless abortion. People don't like limitless abortions in their states. Many think what Virgina allows is utterly disgusting barbaric and inhuman and they don't want it in their State.

And how will overturning Roe v Wade help with restricting "limitless" abortion? The only thing this ruling allows now is for states to ban abortion if they so choose. Other states could do the other extreme, with or without Roe v Wade.

"Depending on criteria" like I said even in Finland a woman does not have an absolute right to do whatever, whenever she pleases. She will likely have to travel to another country to achieve her goal if she fails to meet the criteria. The fact is, your State does have limitations which was my point. Right or wrong isn't for me to decide whats best for Finland, that's your job.

Anyone can get an abortion at under 12 weeks. No criteria needs to be met. I also didn't claim Finland had limitless abortion, nor have I ever said anything to support limitless abortion so again I'm not sure why you are bringing this up.

As an American I couldn't care less how you govern your nation it's not even a blip on my RADAR.

He says, after bringing it up himself.

According to CNN Alabama has what CNN called the most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the nation.. ANTI-ABORTION!

In Alabama, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of June 24, 2022:

• A patient must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage the patient from having an abortion, and then wait 48 hours before the procedure is provided.
• Health plans offered in the state’s health exchange under the Affordable Care Act can only cover abortion in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
• The use of telemedicine to administer medication abortion is prohibited.
• The parent of a minor must consent before an abortion is provided.
• Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
• A patient must undergo an ultrasound before obtaining an abortion; the provider must offer the patient the option to view the image.
• Abortion is banned, except in cases of life endangerment and health of the patient.
• The state requires abortion clinics to meet unnecessary and burdensome standards related to their physical plant, equipment and staffing.

It's apparently obvious that your Billy Bob scenario, claims of lives destroyed, death, suffering is a bit extreme and uncalled for.

See Lousiana, no exceptions for rape or incest.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Dowly

And how will overturning Roe v Wade help with restricting "limitless" abortion? The only thing this ruling allows now is for states to ban abortion if they so choose. Other states could do the other extreme, with or without Roe v Wade.

What is Roe v Wade?

Anyone can get an abortion at under 12 weeks. No criteria needs to be met. I also didn't claim Finland had limitless abortion, nor have I ever said anything to support limitless abortion so again I'm not sure why you are bringing this up.


He says, after bringing it up himself.

No criteria, whenever they want huh?

Granted things may have changed since April 2021 when this article was written.

Recent figures from the Finnish Institute of Health and Welfare (THL) have revealed that Finland has the lowest rate of induced abortions among Nordic countries.

It also has the strictest abortion laws, being the only Nordic country where women need to acquire the signature of at least one doctor (in some cases two) to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

If the pregnancy has proceeded past 13 weeks, special permission from the National Supervisory Authority for Welfare and Health (Valvira) must be obtained.

In 2019, Finland reported 7.7 induced abortions per every thousand women (aged 15–49). The corresponding figure in Sweden, which has the highest number of abortions among Nordic countries, was 16.4 per every thousand women.

As of 2019, Finland had 8,700 induced abortions per year. It also accounted for the highest proportion of drug-induced abortions (97.7 per cent) among Nordic countries. Drug-induced (pharmaceutical) abortions were first introduced in the country in 2000.

According to Anna Heino, special planning officer at THL, the difference in abortion rates between countries can be attributed to various factors, including legislation and cultural differences.

Finland’s current legislation regarding termination, which first came into force in 1970, has been accused of being outdated. Last year, a citizen’s initiative seeking to reform Finland’s abortion laws received enough signatures to be sent to the parliament for consideration.

See Lousiana, no exceptions for rape or incest.

Dude, I don’t know where you’re getting your intel from but your claim is absolute rubbish, made up fantasy, nothing could be further from the truth. Louisiana has no such restrictions preventing abortion in cases of rape or incest.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

What is Roe v Wade?

You should find out, it's kinda important to the discussion we are having.

No criteria huh?

Granted things may have changed since April 2021 when this article was written.

Let's try this a third time: Anyone can get an abortion up until 12 weeks. You can go to a doctor and say you don't want the baby, and that is enough.

Dude, I don’t know where you’re getting your intel from but your claim is absolute rubbish, made up fantasy, nothing could be further from the truth. Louisiana has no such restrictions preventing abortion in cases of rape or incest.

"A pregnancy that results from rape or incest is also not eligible."
https://lailluminator.com/2022/06/24...-court-ruling/


"There are no legal exceptions for rape or incest,"
https://eu.theadvertiser.com/story/n...ng/7694143001/


"No exceptions for victims of rape or incest are included."
https://www.wwno.org/law/2022-06-24/...rns-roe-v-wade

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Dowly

You should find out, it's kinda important to the discussion we are having.

Oh don't you worry, I have a decent grasp on what Roe v Wade was. I asked because I was wondering if you did.

Let's try this a third time: Anyone can get an abortion up until 12 weeks. You can go to a doctor and say you don't want the baby, and that is enough.

Yes and provided they have a doctors working at a state run hospital signature approving it and in some instance permission from the State. Woman are not allowed to go to a private clinic to obtain an abortion.


What works in California or Virginia and many other States here would be impossible to do in Finland. Yet here you are preaching to us

"A pregnancy that results from rape or incest is also not eligible."
https://lailluminator.com/2022/06/24...-court-ruling/

"There are no legal exceptions for rape or incest,"
https://eu.theadvertiser.com/story/n...ng/7694143001/

"No exceptions for victims of rape or incest are included."
https://www.wwno.org/law/2022-06-24/...rns-roe-v-wade

I don't know if the people who wrote those articles have an agenda, didn't take the time to read, don't know how to read or are just plain stupid. But I think you're embarrassing yourself when you post some links like. Makes me wonder if you're some kind of card carrying member of Qanon or Blue Annon?

I suggest you check the Louisiana State Legislation Website.

https://legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=965011

RS 40:1061.18

§1061.18. Abortion sought due to rape or certain acts of crime against nature; reporting and certification

A. Whenever an abortion is being sought pursuant to R.S. 40:1061.6 to terminate a pregnancy resulting from an alleged act of rape, prior to the abortion all of the following requirements shall be met:

(1) The rape victim shall report the rape to a law enforcement official unless the treating physician certifies in writing that in the physician's professional opinion, the victim was too physically or psychologically incapacitated to report the rape.

(2) The victim certifies that the pregnancy is the result of rape, which certificate shall be witnessed by the treating physician.

B. Whenever an abortion is being sought pursuant to R.S. 40:1061.6 to terminate a pregnancy resulting from an alleged act of crime against nature as defined by R.S. 14:89(A)(2), prior to the abortion all of the following requirements shall be met:

(1) The victim of crime against nature as defined by R.S. 14:89(A)(2) shall report the act to a law enforcement official unless the treating physician certifies in writing that in the physician's professional opinion the victim was too physically or psychologically incapacitated to report the act.

(2) The victim certifies that the pregnancy is the result of crime against nature as defined by R.S. 14:89(A)(2), which certificate shall be witnessed by the treating physician.

[August]

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg

I also wanted to ask this, if Roe V. Wade was a ruling made by the SCOTUS does that actually make the ability for women to get an abortion a "constitutional right"? Was that right ever codified into law in either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? Because if it wasn't then it's not a constitutional right at all.

Roe v Wade held that the right to abortion was protected under the 14th Amendment. That was rather a stretch though and it should have been codified into law by Congress soon after the ruling but they never did.