[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

It works with Falcon and DCS because they simulate single-seat aircraft.

That's quite true, and shows the great dividing line between what can and can't be done.

I've always interpreted the hardcore subsimmers as pretty much wanting something that simulates an entire submarine to Falcon or DCS fidelity, which seems massively impractical.

Also true, which is why I said I thought that what makes the difference isn't the type of game itself but the person playing it.

The fun thing about SH1 and AOD is that they are really quite 'gamy' if the level of simulation is judged solely on procedural fidelity. Both automate a lot of processes like TMA and sailing model, and AOD even had an automated deck gun. Whereas the hardcore sim crowd would complain if these stations weren't modelled to the point of manually compensating for windage. I don't think procedural fidelity is something that magically improves the simulated experience.

Again I agree. I've always seen being able to turn every single knob and push every button as a waste of time, because these are things the captain can do but never does, because he doesn't have to. I think SH3's 'Weapons Officer Assistance' is very realistic, with the one flaw that it's perfect every time. The best in that department would be to have the player look through the periscope, adjust the rangefinder and click a button, which would then have his observations entered on the map. He would have to make the judgement call, but intering it into the TDC would be automatic.

As an example, the one WW1 game that gave me the best experience of "being there" was without a doubt Wings, even though it was hardly a realistic simulation compared to even Red Baron or Knights of the Sky. Its qualities lay in the narrative.

I'm not familiar with that one, but every week I play a 3D game with my friends which involves moving model airplanes on stands around the floor and rolling dice. You can't see the view from the cockpit, and there are no switches at all, but the feel is amazing and real combat tactics work. Pilots who have played it have praised it almost without fail.

Oh yeah, SH1 is one of the few dos sims that hasn't really aged at all if you play it in DosBox today. Even the graphics still look good if you can look past the flat sea. Then experience what has to be THE defining anti-sub AI if there ever was one.

I still play it, though not all the time. I do love sailing in and out of the harbors in SH3, and looking at the sights. SH5 really is even better, if they could only get the mods that I want into that version.

This is why I probably won't like SHO. I want to sail out of Kiel and through the canal, with locks and working gates, and that's not what this online game is about. But that's just me.