[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I do not really believe that Iran will be the winner, after all.

They already are. They have both hands plunged into Iraqi politics now. Al-Sadr represents Iranian interests and influence, too. Persians are Shias. The Iraqi Shias differ from them since they are more following Arab Shia tradition (different than Persian Shia tradition), but still - ther eis ties forming up.

certainly not the people in short terms, but also not the religious leaders in long terms.

Since when is powerpolitics about the interest of the people...? The rift between Sunni and Shia branches nevertheless remain, and so does the faceoff Saudi-Arabia versus Iran

As it was said before (by MH ?) seeing the western techniques and freedom, the "religious" leaders (indeed it is all about power, and the best religious pretext is just an excuse for poor dictatorship) will have a hard time to sweep it all under the carpet, with mobile phones with cameras, internet and seeing what happened in Libya, Egypt, and now in Syria.

How many times have we heared that in the poast ten years now? Concerning Afghanistan? Pakistan? Tunisia? Egypt? Kuwait? Libya? And where tough regimes do not stay in control, new theocratiuc regimes get voted for in free democratic elections.

Nice.

@Skybird i'd propose to just talk to some "islamists", or better just people living in Germany as muslims and not being religiously or otherwise radical in any respect. There should be enough in Berlin to ask or talk to.

I have been in Muslim countries for much longer than one year, mainly Iran and Turkey, and for short times in some more, and I have spoken to German Muslims also - true Muslims and "fake" (="moderate")-Muslims who indeed already were apostates but did not confess to that. I also talked two guys so much into doubt that they took the courage and strength to stand up against their families and left Islam - at tragically high costs for them, and greta risk for their health and life. They are apostates now, but they have lost their families. I have been part of a Bürgerinitiative that confronted a Muslim fraudery over a mosque-increasing project next to the place I live here and we managed to prevent it at court and to reveal it as an act of fraud over forged contracts. I have been told to the face that of course they lied, else they would not have gotten what they wanted, our chairman got beaten up on the street, his wife mobbed repeatedly, and they finally fled from the city. I have gotten paper-letters with threads of murder. The police refused to take them seriousl, instead threatening ME with investigations by the BKA against ME.

What was it you wanted to tell me about "speaking to Muslims?"

It'S the ideology. It'S the regional patriarchalic culture. What some Muslim says, does not chnage that. Can you imagine how often someobdy in thos forum told me in the past ten years "Hey, but I know a friendly Muslim who lives in the flat at the end of my floor"? Can you imagine how tiresome it is that one refers to ideology, or history, or content of religious law - and gets met by a superficial reply like this? "I know somebody who lives down the floor, and I like him."

Well. Fine. Nice. I'm not impressed. I drank tea in houses of Muslim hosts inj Turkey and Iran and was treated very nicely in Iran (mostly), and polite but ery cold in Turkey (mostly). And one minute lkater I got told how proud I should be that my German people have killed so many Jews. Or that aid of a mullah in Teheran that my boss back then interviewed in another hall. We sat on the balcony, and he asked me about myself and back then I still was wearing that stupid stamp on my forehead "Buddhist", and he jzust nodded and did noit eat me alive. He then reflected nicely about joy and freedom and the meaning of life in Islam - and how good it serves a man'
s chance for later entering paradise if he bans the evil in women by whipping them frequently. Nice!

Again refer you - all - to comparing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. If then you think that terms like freedom and tolerance have the same meaning in Islam as in our culture, I cannot help you.

Wait, you are lucky, you speak German. In German I have a link for such a comparison at hand:
http://www.citizentimes.eu/2012/03/2...chte-im-islam/

Say good-bye to free speech, free opinion, humanism, equal rights, equality for women. The flag of the prophet must fly above everything.