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gap · 01-04-19, 06:25 PM

Nice discussion going on here guys:

@ oskar123

Low poly count is not (always) a big issue; some models that have been released for SHIII and SHIV are even more detailed/accurate than SH5 ones, but there are several other limits inherent to the dat format or to the way old models are built. In confirmation of Seaowl's remark, here are some of the main minus points of the units imported directly from older SH games:

SH5 makes an extensive use of normal maps (for creating the illusion of more detailed/rough surfaces) and ambient occlusion maps (for increasing the perception of 3D volumes, for painting camo schemes on top of the regular textures and for adding dirt/rust to them). Unfortunatelu SHIII has only limited support for normal and ambient occlusion maps; that means that all the ship models imported from that game lack those features and they look a bit lavished in SH5. The missing maps can be created manually, but doing that slows down the import process, especially for a.o. maps that require being mapped on a different UV projection than the regular textures.
Conversely, SHIV fully supports normal and a.o. maps, but those textures are added to each model by means of the unified render controller, a controller native to SHIV. This controller works in SH5 too, and it is needed for ships imported in SH5 to look up to par, but IIRC it is not compatible with GR2 objects. Use a GR2 equipment on a dat ship with the said controller, and that equipment will look totally black in game. That means that, if we want dat ships to look as good as they look in SHIV, we need to import them together with their (dat) guns, even though those guns are already in the SH5 library folder (as gr2 objects).
Unlike SH5, SHIII ships have no internal parts modelled. When they break in half no 3D compartments and crumpled metal are visible, but just smooth surfaces closing the broken hull ends. More or less the same goes for torpedo holes: they are decals rather than real holes. A basic 3D model of ship interiors could be added but again: doing that will take time.
Unlike gr2 units, the underwater part of dat-format hulls in not visible when looking at them from above the water and it looks blurred when seen underwater (unless one places the camera so that the projection of the submerged object overlaps the water surface). These glitches could possibly be fixed only by editing SH5 shaders, if you can figure out their code.
Shadows are a broken feature in SHIII that, I think, was fixed in SHIV; anyway I seem to remember that SHIV shadows never worked in SH5 as granny-format shadows used in the latter game are computed in a completely different way. I could be wrong on that, but no shadows with dat ships in SH5
SH5 has a slightly different damage format that its predecessors. When the game was released, hull vicinity didn't trigger magnetic pistols. Paradoxically, after importing the first dat ships, it was discovered that unlike stock (gr2) ships the new (dat) ships could be sunk with magnetic torpedoes. At some point TDW created a patch that fixed magnetic detonations for gr2 ships, but messed it up for dat ships, so now you have to choose. I don't think you can get both unit types to break apart with a well placed magnetic torpedo.
GR2 units support LOD models; dat units don't.

Those are all the issues that I can think of, but I go by memory and I might have missed something or listed an inconvenience that has been worked-around in the meanwhile. Anyway, given these limits, when importing new ships, aircraft or submarines it would be difficult to obtain a qualitative level comparable to that of stock units if we only rely on the dat format and, with the tools we have currently available, converting whichever unit/model of some complexity to the gr2 format would be a slow and tourtuous process, though not impossible in theory.
That said, several dat ships have been imported in game, and though not perfect, they look and perform acceptably good in most situations. If we always aimed at perfection and waited for someone else to clear the path for us, the history of subsim modding would be probably stuck to the first Silent Hunter, so don't be afraid to be arrogant; be curious instead and follow Seaowl's or Jeff-Groves's advise: you will learn something new, and if you get stuck you can always ask here

01-04-19, 06:25 PM	#16
gap Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: CJ8937 Posts: 8,214 Downloads: 793 Uploads: 10	Nice discussion going on here guys: @ oskar123 Low poly count is not (always) a big issue; some models that have been released for SHIII and SHIV are even more detailed/accurate than SH5 ones, but there are several other limits inherent to the dat format or to the way old models are built. In confirmation of Seaowl's remark, here are some of the main minus points of the units imported directly from older SH games: SH5 makes an extensive use of normal maps (for creating the illusion of more detailed/rough surfaces) and ambient occlusion maps (for increasing the perception of 3D volumes, for painting camo schemes on top of the regular textures and for adding dirt/rust to them). Unfortunatelu SHIII has only limited support for normal and ambient occlusion maps; that means that all the ship models imported from that game lack those features and they look a bit lavished in SH5. The missing maps can be created manually, but doing that slows down the import process, especially for a.o. maps that require being mapped on a different UV projection than the regular textures. Conversely, SHIV fully supports normal and a.o. maps, but those textures are added to each model by means of the unified render controller, a controller native to SHIV. This controller works in SH5 too, and it is needed for ships imported in SH5 to look up to par, but IIRC it is not compatible with GR2 objects. Use a GR2 equipment on a dat ship with the said controller, and that equipment will look totally black in game. That means that, if we want dat ships to look as good as they look in SHIV, we need to import them together with their (dat) guns, even though those guns are already in the SH5 library folder (as gr2 objects). Unlike SH5, SHIII ships have no internal parts modelled. When they break in half no 3D compartments and crumpled metal are visible, but just smooth surfaces closing the broken hull ends. More or less the same goes for torpedo holes: they are decals rather than real holes. A basic 3D model of ship interiors could be added but again: doing that will take time. Unlike gr2 units, the underwater part of dat-format hulls in not visible when looking at them from above the water and it looks blurred when seen underwater (unless one places the camera so that the projection of the submerged object overlaps the water surface). These glitches could possibly be fixed only by editing SH5 shaders, if you can figure out their code. Shadows are a broken feature in SHIII that, I think, was fixed in SHIV; anyway I seem to remember that SHIV shadows never worked in SH5 as granny-format shadows used in the latter game are computed in a completely different way. I could be wrong on that, but no shadows with dat ships in SH5 SH5 has a slightly different damage format that its predecessors. When the game was released, hull vicinity didn't trigger magnetic pistols. Paradoxically, after importing the first dat ships, it was discovered that unlike stock (gr2) ships the new (dat) ships could be sunk with magnetic torpedoes. At some point TDW created a patch that fixed magnetic detonations for gr2 ships, but messed it up for dat ships, so now you have to choose. I don't think you can get both unit types to break apart with a well placed magnetic torpedo. GR2 units support LOD models; dat units don't. Those are all the issues that I can think of, but I go by memory and I might have missed something or listed an inconvenience that has been worked-around in the meanwhile. Anyway, given these limits, when importing new ships, aircraft or submarines it would be difficult to obtain a qualitative level comparable to that of stock units if we only rely on the dat format and, with the tools we have currently available, converting whichever unit/model of some complexity to the gr2 format would be a slow and tourtuous process, though not impossible in theory. That said, several dat ships have been imported in game, and though not perfect, they look and perform acceptably good in most situations. If we always aimed at perfection and waited for someone else to clear the path for us, the history of subsim modding would be probably stuck to the first Silent Hunter, so don't be afraid to be arrogant; be curious instead and follow Seaowl's or Jeff-Groves's advise: you will learn something new, and if you get stuck you can always ask here __________________ _____________________ \|May the Force be with you!\| ...\/ Last edited by gap; 01-04-19 at 08:49 PM.