[CCIP]

I'm all for a sub-forum, and I would actually name it "Current Issues" to avoid the polarizing language. It would not alleviate the problems, sure, nor make the debates less bitter (realistically speaking) - but I think it would adress Konovalov's concern about scaring away new members from GT as a whole.

Oh, and just so people know where I'm coming from... I'm a graduate student whose major focus area is critical discourse analysis (and who will probably be writing a thesis soon on some form of highly politicized discourse). Naturally I am both fascinated by some of these debates, and also sometimes rather irked by the weasely language used (by both sides of the spectrum by the way). Likewise, I think it's safe to say that I'm in a definite minority politically, being a self-proclaimed socialist (in a fairly strong sense of the word).

I like Neal's view of it as a clubhouse though. I think this is important to have, as long as it's fairly moderated and kept from becoming a bashing ground. Look at it the other way - I mean, I know what the other way is. I have been in a community which had a general forum and then closed it, and watched some (almost all) of the most interesting people in the community move away and leave altogether. Sure it got rid of the troublemakers, but with the troublemakers went some valuable members (some of them, ironically, troublemakers by default) and a general sense of community.

I keep wanting to make a nice, fuzzy thread about the things we probably share in common here, but I guess I haven't gotten around to it yet. Because I find that some of the people I strongly disagree with are also very productive community members and overall good folks who do good things. I certainly don't want to come off as an 'enemy' to them, even despite the ideological differences we might have.

Where I see the problem is in ideological attacks. We've established that personal attacks on the forum are off-limits, but the problem is that there are constant (and perhaps inevitable) ideological attacks taking place that get people going no less than a personal attack would, perhaps more because they're so seemingly subversive and indirect. I don't think there is really a solution to that, except asking everyone to behave in a civil manner about it.

But let's not be naive. This is a forum, a place to discuss, not a place for ideological transformation. Let's try not to take these debates too too seriously. Use the "two goats on two mountains" analogy or "bark bark - woof woof" analogy, the fact is that you're dealing with things that probably go deeper than a forum discussion can change. It's no secret that ideologies construe people's thinking and define the arguments which are acceptable to them. Ultimately, we can have our rhetorical clash here and there, but I really don't see the point in taking it too far: if you wish to engage in ideological struggle, I think there are far more relevant places to do it than Subsim's General Topics. At the very least, if you insist - keep a measure of respect. Again, this goes for everyone collectively.