[gap]

Continuing in this thread the conversation on neutral ships and German engagement rules (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...08#post2665208) started in kapuhy's Small Motor Coaster REL thread, because it belongs better here.

Kapuhy sorry again for having derailed your thread

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Yes , I perfectly understand what you mean and I had similar toughs my self as well, but when I think of it and how much work these changes would actually require, I must I admit I tend to get scared a bit.


I have plans to ease up a bit neutral traffic in "legitimate" hostile waters for first two campaign chapters (problem of neutral ships in hostile waters isn't so pronounced in later war years) and I'll certainly reach out to you when I start to work on these stuff...


On a bright side, my introduction of illuminated vessels in TWoS took away large part of players confusion regarding targets selection. We now even have an add-on which will make certain nation to use only illuminated vessels until it joins to one of the confronted coalitions...

I am glad to learn that we share similar ideas, and whenever you will be ready to further develop them, I will be more than happy to ease your work both with historical research and by offering my modding skills.

Among the other things, I have been recently working on a still unreleased ensign mod which features realistic flags with correct aspect ratios (most of them are taken from pictures of real, weathered, WWII-era merchant and naval ensigns displayed in museums) and adds a few new nations to the game. I think that both features would make a nice addition for TWoS and that they could be part of our common effort to make SH5's sea traffic closer to the WWII-era one, but I am also in on putting my hands on ship units equipment and skins, campaign files, radio messages, etc.

Finally, I will leave you a few examples just to make clearer what I have in mind.


Fact #1 (from Wikipedia):
«President Franklin D. Roosevelt declared the United States' neutrality on September 5 [1939], and declared the naval patrol a Neutrality Patrol. Roosevelt's initiation of the Neutrality Patrol, which in fact also escorted British ships, as well as orders to U.S. Navy destroyers first to actively report U-boats, then "shoot on sight", meant American neutrality was honored more in the breach than observance.
[...] At the beginning of 1941, President Roosevelt secretly organized a protection-of-shipping task force 24, given the designation of Support Force, United States Atlantic Fleet, under the command of Rear Admiral Arthur L. Bristol. Ships, planes, funding, and personnel were assigned in January and February, and operations began in March.
[...] To augment the fleet units already engaged in the Neutrality Patrol which President Roosevelt had placed around the eastern seaboard and Gulf ports, the United States Navy recommissioned 77 destroyers and light minelayers which had lain in reserve at either Philadelphia or San Diego. In Newfoundland on August 9, 1941, President Roosevelt agreed to provide American destroyers as escorts for the Canada to Iceland portion of HX convoys and westbound ON convoys. USS Greer ineffectively engaged U-652 on September 4; and on September 11 President Roosevelt declared Axis ships entered the neutrality zone at their own risk, and ordered the U.S. Navy to attack any vessel threatening ships under American escort. HX 150 sailed September 16, 1941, as the first convoy with American escort. ON 18 sailed September 24 as the first westbound convoy with American escort. The Gleaves-class destroyer Kearny was torpedoed while escorting Convoy SC 48 on October 17, 1941. The destroyer Reuben James was torpedoed and sunk on October 31, 1941, while escorting Convoy HX 156 with a loss of 100 lives».

In game: I think TWoS' version of defsides.cfg has still a 'FreeAmerican' nation I had setup for representing the escorts involved in Neutrality Patrols, and the few American merchants that were attacked by German U-boats when the USA were still officially neutral. Nonetheless, I think this 'nation' was never actually used.
What I would do, is to assign some minelayers (if available) and some old destroyers of the appropriate classes to the FreeAmerican roster. Starting from early 1941, when the Support Force was organized, these escort vessels should patrol the Est Coast of North and South America within an area described by this chart. I doubt the Nazis to be aware of those patrols, so should the players incautiously move their patrol zones too far west, they would risk suffering a surprise-attack by an apparently neutral warship (unless they are reading these notes, in which case they will be more prudent lol). Nonetheless, shortly after 11 September, when Roosevelt 'officialized' those patrol and their 'hostile' nature towards German submarines, a radio message should be dispatched warning all the Atlantic boats about the risk of being attacked by US destroyers patrolling the Neutrality Zone. Moreover, starting from the day 16 and the day 24 of the same month, 'FreeAmerican' destroyers should start escorting convoys of the HX and ON series respectively (other North Atlantic convoys might be involved too, and we will find them out). Again, the player wouldn't be aware about these US-escorted convoys until he sees one, or until he receives a BdU message reporting that US escorts have been spotted within Allied convoys and instructing U-baot captains on how to deal with them (= avoid them or... be aggressive with them )


Fact# 2 (desumed from uboat.net and u-historia.com): after the Fall of France and prior to its liberation, a number of Vichy French vessels were attacked and sunk by German U-boats because they were not conforming with the Vichy French neutrality markings, or because they were suspected of radioing the U-boat position to the enemy. According to the essay Ordinary Sailors: The French Navy, Vichy and the Second World War «A further flavor of the restrictions under
which the French continued to operate was provided at a conference in Wiesbaden between the German Minister Plenipotentiary Hemmen and Admiral Michelier on 3 August 1940, where conditions were laid down for the departure of five French refrigerated vessels. Namely that three days’ notice of the departure of each vessel should be provided, along with routes and points of departure; the ships had to fly the French flag above a yellow flag, with French colors painted visibly on the sides and bridgework, surrounded by a yellow border on a black background and illuminated at night; it was forbidden to zig-zag; routes used by British convoys should be avoided and a safe distance maintained from Gibraltar; French crews should prevent under any circumstances ships or cargo falling into British hands. In addition, the ships should sail directly from Dakar to Bordeaux, individually and successively, meaning that one had to arrive at its destination before the next could cast off».

In game: during the German occupation all the French sea traffic should stay away from British-controlled areas and be composed by solitary ships. Moreover, all the Vichy ships should be illuminated at night and they should display the identification markings described above. In the same time, a 'FreeVichy' roster should be created. A few of its ships could miss some of the prescribed marking and/or night lights. Their traffic should be (very) scarce. It can be made to follow the same routes as regular Vichy shipping, but a few ships might be done to sail in small groups and/or to be bound for British waters. The more we mix-up thefe infractions to German rules, the more difficult will be the identification of potential French enemies by the player. Of course, shortly after the Fall of France, we should receive the usual BdU message instructing us on the rules to which French ships must attain not to be considered smugglers or spies. Even a single infraction would candidate them as valid targets.


Fact# 3 (desumed from uboat.net and u-historia.com): in the course of the war, a number of neutral fishing trawlers (IIRC mostly Spanish and Portuguese) were sunk by U-bowts South of Ireland because they were fishing too close to the British border.

In game: we should create 'Free' copies of the appropriate nations and place one or more classes of fishing trawlers in their roster. These vessels should be made to move back and forth from their territorial waters to open sea areas in front of Southern Ireland (we can desume those areas from the logs of U-boats who actually sunk neutral fishing boats). At the same time, we should make sure that no 'true' neutral fishing vessel is sailing that close to British waters. After the Fall of France, a radio message will inform the player that fishing activities in NE Atlantic have been restricted to the South of a certain latitude, and all the fishing vessels crossing that line are to be considered valid targets irrespective of their nationality.