[MaHuJa]

Originally Posted by Hatch

as you patently put it, you have to revert to the stock game for MP playing, there is no unison in version usage, MOD or not MOD,

I never play DW unmodded nowadays. And I'll tell you this - when I've been playing, in "open" places where mod/not mod has not been predecided by other people, modded has been far preferred.

further, you also validated one other concept I put forward, and that was the tinkering with the program for your own personal use, the only consensus as you put it was the patched developer stock game, which clearly outlines the plateau where all gamers can meet in a leveled arena of playing. Which is one of the points I described on my initial assessment?

You seem to be deliberately misreading him.

Essentially, if a player is gonna be able to play "everyone" then the simple count of "who has stock installed" and "who has mod installed" goes in favor of the former - BECAUSE NEARLY ALL OF THE LATTER ALSO IS IN THE FORMER GROUP.

(I'm one of the few people only in the latter group.)

As for the suggestion of SCS not having enough time to tweak the realism models, I think it’s a weak argument; it certainly does make a convenient one to validate the Modders existence.

One could say they have the time, but that would slow down the work on the more important issues that only they can fix.

what you have here is a situation of non endorsement by the manufacturer to convince skeptics such as me, and thousands of others, that the changes do warrant their implementation to further better gaming, I for one would be delighted to try another patch or fix, provided the developer avails itself to approve that work.

I’m assuming that Sonalysts is unwilling to underwrite your work for whatever reason, be it secret (Which I think its ridiculous) to one of man hours spent reviewing your work, and do you know why they do not avail themselves to underwrite any MOD?

I can think of a number of reasons. For one, they seem to be very short on manpower nowadays, and secondly, perhaps related to being in the government defense contractor business, they may have some overly paranoid lawyers having too much say in it to allow such a thing. I don't know, but that's certainly a possibility.

It isn’t because it’s a top secret changes you made to a game, its one of credibility and corporate image, to put it simply, this is what people would say “Oh SCS, them guys are selling a buggy, unfinished game, and a bunch of hackers, amateurs, tinkerers and Modders had to finish it for them with their approval, and those guys didn’t get a dime for finishing that product, so SCS made out like a bandit, yet we are paying full retail price”

Umm... I think you're WAY off track on this.

I believe (someone know if this is actually the case?) counterstrike started out as a *mod* for halflife... and did anybody say that about valve? At least not many - as the sales statistics for hl2 probably shows.

CS was a bottom-up remake, but that still doesn't change the fact that it pretty much took over for stock HL in multiplayer. And as for endorsement, all valve said at one time was something like "as long as they have to buy a copy of HL it's ok". ("ok" might have been "we don't care", but I went for the most endorsing version)


The sum total: Your argument is in shreds. Presuming a popular mod is more "reputation-damaging" in that way than one that "only a few people uses" as you put it.

(Note, nearly everything I know of HL/CS is secondhand.)

all of this yields a dilemma of credibility for all you hard working modders

Please elaborate...

you are facing not having the real recognition and endorsement for the work you have done.

Ummm... how much do you think they should expect?

Most good software - at least open software - starts with the developer scratching a personal itch. This is no different from modders.

Then others find it useful, start using it, and provide feedback on what else can be done. This is also no different from modders.

As for the "recognition and endorsement" - you're speaking as if you're assuming everyone goes into the "mod business" hoping and expecting (and there makes it somewhat an oxymoron, doesn't it?) to be recognized like the CS people did - hl2 multiplayer mode *is* CS:S by what I hear.

That's just an accidental result.

>...you don’t have the acceptance of the general public,

We don't know that. My impression is that nearly everyone on the subsim forum uses it, and of those nearly everyone can switch back for a mp session with someone who doesn't have it yet - or won't play with it. How many more?

Since installing a mod involves an extra set of actions, publicity is implicit (everyone who knows the mod knows the game), the 'stock' has an advantage over a mod, always.


>and my friend that spells a doomed product,

Generally speaking, only if "the general public" is the target audience you depend on.

>if you did the changes for yourself great, you can go look in the mirror and blow kisses at yourself

...could certainly qualify as incendiary...

if it isn’t adopted by the general public (And I mean a lot of gamers not just your friends) as I described it, it will fade into obscurity in the long run.

I hardly consider myself a close friend or even associate of them. In "market" terms I'm a happy 'customer' of the modders.

(Everything fades into obscurity in the long run. Make the run long enough and perhaps the same can be said of humanity.)

Most groups playing online seems to choose to play with the stock game instead of modded. I believe the entire reasoning comes down to small things like tech support - in endorsing it and requiring it, they may have to help people install it properly, the manhours required for which may be more than they feel like spending. Then again, I suggest we ask them directly for their reasons.