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-   -   [REL]The Wolves of Steel - SH5 Megamod (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210703)

Muckenberg 05-02-20 01:16 AM
Hello
This is very great news that there will be a type XIV in the game. And the exchange for some tankers and merchant ships will be more beneficial for the game. I look forward to a new update.


One more question. Would it be a big problem to increase the range of supply ships? After all, the circling is not very natural. And a little bit of that search for a supply ship would also be quite faithful.
:Kaleun_Salute:

kapuhy 05-02-20 04:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2667430)
Well, it's not going to a real "looker" but it'll be better to have a real milch-cow for in-patrol refitting instead of currently used Dithermarschen class tankers and type VIIC U-boats...What do you thing guys?
Loving it!

I've been reading a book on "milk cows" recently... these guys had one of the hardest jobs ever. Looking forward to see them in game.

Will it be able to submerge? I don't know if this is already in game's radio messages but standing orders were not to submerge your boat in event of air attack during refuelling and provide cover until milk cow is safely under water.

vdr1981 05-02-20 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapuhy (Post 2667539)
Loving it!

I've been reading a book on "milk cows" recently... these guys had one of the hardest jobs ever. Looking forward to see them in game.

Will it be able to submerge?
I don't think so, at least not for now. It will have AI of a regular armed replenishment merchant (type=100). I don't want to take any chances for now since submarines AI is very questionable to say the least.



Still have to solve few problems though, for example AI sonarmen can detect her but player can not so any tips will be useful...:hmmm:

gap 05-02-20 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2667430)
Well, it's not going to a real "looker" but it'll be better to have a real milch-cow for in-patrol refitting instead of currently used Dithermarschen class tankers and type VIIC U-boats...What do you thing guys?
If you ask me, where/when historically appropriate milch-cows will make a nice addition. Keep in mind that the first patrol by a Type XIV U-boat started on late March '42, and the last of them was sunk on 12 Jun 1944. During this interval they surely played an important role in the Battle of the Atlantic, especially during Operation Torch, yet you should also consider that only 10 U-boats of this class were in commission, the majority of them not entering active service before summer '42 (some of them much later) and being killed in action between spring and autumn '43. Five out of ten didn't manage carrying out more than three sorties and, of those, three were killed during their first patrol.

On the other hand, before the first "Milch Cows" started their service, and alongside them (after their commissioning) a number of German auxiliary ships - oilers, supply vessels, but also commerce riders - carried out replenishment duties in the North and South Atlantic and in the Indian Ocean, refitting among the other German vessels a considerable number of U-boats. This is to say that completely replacing the Dithmarschen (or any other ships used in that role in the OHII campaing and in the current TWoS campaign) with the Type U-boat, would be historically inaccurate and detrimental to the variety of the game.

If you want to know more on the U-boat replenishment operations that involved a ship as the supply vessel, you will find more details at the following links:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...nt#post1945324
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...98#post1950598

Unfortunately most of the pictures and of the charts that illustrated my lists went lost, but should you need those charts I can recreate some of them. Moreover, if you think that a list of all the U-boats the are know for having been replenished by another U-boat (with dates and locations) might ease your task, I will gladly collect that information for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2667559)
Still have to solve few problems though, for example AI sonarmen can detect her but player can not so any tips will be useful...:hmmm:
I should have a look into the files. Can you upload them somewhere?

Tonci87 05-02-20 11:04 AM
By the way, is it possible to disable Torpedo replenishment at sea?
I donīt think that Torpedoes were replenished at sea IRL, or am I wrong?

gap 05-02-20 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonci87 (Post 2667626)
By the way, is it possible to disable Torpedo replenishment at sea?
I donīt think that Torpedoes were replenished at sea IRL, or am I wrong?
I think I have read reports where some U-boats received a small amount of torpedoes from replenishment vessels. I can't say if that was a common practice, but it made sense anyway: what would have been the point of keeping the boats longer at sea, if they couldn't get a fresh load of their main weapon?

Tonci87 05-02-20 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gap (Post 2667661)
I think I have read reports where some U-boats received a small amount of torpedoes from replenishment vessels. I can't say if that was a common practice, but it made sense anyway: what would have been the point of keeping the boats longer at sea, if they couldn't get a fresh load of their main weapon?
Fuel, Water, Food

I just canīt imagine Torpedo replenishment being done easily at sea. Passing a fuel line and provisions, ok. But trying to lower a really heavy and long torpedo with a crane onto a very small area on a very small vessel, that will be severely affected by even small waves? There is just too much that can go wrong. My impression is that Uīboats returned to port once their torpedoes were all fired.

The replenishment at sea was needed when the journey to the patrol area was very long, or if if took a long time for a boat to find enough targets.

I do not have hard data to back that up, but I never saw anything claiming that Torpedoes were replenished at sea.

vdr1981 05-02-20 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gap (Post 2667588)
If you ask me, where/when historically appropriate milch-cows will make a nice addition. Keep in mind that the first patrol by a Type XIV U-boat started on late March '42, and the last of them was sunk on 12 Jun 1944. During this interval they surely played an important role in the Battle of the Atlantic, especially during Operation Torch, yet you should also consider that only 10 U-boats of this class were in commission, the majority of them not entering active service before summer '42 (some of them much later) and being killed in action between spring and autumn '43. Five out of ten didn't manage carrying out more than three sorties and, of those, three were killed during their first patrol.

On the other hand, before the first "Milch Cows" started their service, and alongside them (after their commissioning) a number of German auxiliary ships - oilers, supply vessels, but also commerce riders - carried out replenishment duties in the North and South Atlantic and in the Indian Ocean, refitting among the other German vessels a considerable number of U-boats. This is to say that completely replacing the Dithmarschen (or any other ships used in that role in the OHII campaing and in the current TWoS campaign) with the Type U-boat, would be historically inaccurate and detrimental to the variety of the game.

If you want to know more on the U-boat replenishment operations that involved a ship as the supply vessel, you will find more details at the following links:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...nt#post1945324
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...98#post1950598

Unfortunately most of the pictures and of the charts that illustrated my lists went lost, but should you need those charts I can recreate some of them. Moreover, if you think that a list of all the U-boats the are know for having been replenished by another U-boat (with dates and locations) might ease your task, I will gladly collect that information for you.



I should have a look into the files. Can you upload them somewhere?

Thanks for the info Gap.:up: I'll certainly try to follow historical facts as much as possible...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonci87 (Post 2667626)
By the way, is it possible to disable Torpedo replenishment at sea?
I donīt think that Torpedoes were replenished at sea IRL, or am I wrong?
No, I don't think that's possible. It all or nothing in SH games...


https://i.postimg.cc/L8v4zKkV/SH5-Im...2-19-32-20.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/yNd1jQvC/SH5-Im...2-19-39-09.jpg

kapuhy 05-02-20 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonci87 (Post 2667626)
By the way, is it possible to disable Torpedo replenishment at sea?
I donīt think that Torpedoes were replenished at sea IRL, or am I wrong?
It was done. Speaking from memory, since I've given the book on it back to library, but it had reports of U-boats (not just "milk cows", but also attack boats returning from patrol with torpedoes for whatever reason - damage, lack of fuel, etc) being odered by BdU to transfer their torpedoes to another boat.

gap 05-02-20 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapuhy (Post 2667698)
It was done. Speaking from memory, since I've given the book on it back to library, but it had reports of U-boats (not just "milk cows", but also attack boats returning from patrol with torpedoes for whatever reason - damage, lack of fuel, etc) being odered by BdU to transfer their torpedoes to another boat.
Yes, I have read.similar reports. Not only torpedoes were transferred from attack boat to attack boat, but fuel as well.

Tonci87 05-02-20 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gap (Post 2667701)
Yes, I have read.similar reports. Not only torpedoes were transferred from attack boat to attack boat, but fuel as well.
I really wonder how they did it.

kapuhy 05-02-20 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonci87 (Post 2667713)
I really wonder how they did it.
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...85&postcount=9

Tonci87 05-02-20 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapuhy (Post 2667743)
Thanks for that!

Damn sailors are crafty

gap 05-03-20 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonci87 (Post 2667753)
Thanks for that!

Damn sailors are crafty
:03:

Lugermann 05-03-20 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2667686)
Thanks for the info Gap.:up: I'll certainly try to follow historical facts as much as possible...
Maybe this is useful.

Know war cruises of type XIV:

https://i.ibb.co/dQ05Zs7/IMG-1494.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/7KVkKjS/IMG-1495.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tsSFm8t/IMG-1496.jpg

Source: The Milk Cows. U-Boat Tankers at War 1941-1945. John White. Pen & Sword Military, 2009.

Lugermann 05-03-20 09:23 AM
A few U-Boats type XB (long-range minelayers) were used as resupply boats.

gap 05-03-20 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugermann (Post 2667850)
Maybe this is useful.

Know war cruises of type XIV:

Source: The Milk Cows. U-Boat Tankers at War 1941-1945. John White. Pen & Sword Military, 2009.
Good info Lugermann.

Personally I use u-boat.net for patrol logs as it offers information on daily U-boat positions.

Another good website is u-historia.com as it contains reports of the main events in each U-boat patrol.

By crossing the information of the two websites above, I have noticed that rendezvous areas for resupplying operations were not random, but planned at fixed locations, and often these locations didn't change for months. My statement above applies for sure to auxiliary (surface) tankers, but it probably can be extended also to U-boat-to-U-boat resupplies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugermann (Post 2667857)
A few U-Boats type XB (long-range minelayers) were used as resupply boats.
As noted by kapuhy, in case of necessity or when the circumstances made it fit, any long-range U-boat could be used as support vessel for other U-boats. Just as an example, during their long passage from Europe to the Far East, several type IX U-boats of the so called 'Monsun Gruppe' were diverted to fuel other boats. :yep:

Lugermann 05-03-20 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gap (Post 2667874)

As noted by kapuhy, in case of necessity or when the circumstances made it fit, any long-range U-boat could be used as support vessel for other U-boats. Just as an example, during their long passage from Europe to the Far East, several type IX U-boats of the so called 'Monsun Gruppe' were diverted to fuel other boats. :yep:
Yes, due the loss of a U-tanker.

The Monsun Gruppe had a complex refueling plan. First, the IXC40s and IXCs were to refuel on the outbound leg from the Type XIV U-tanker U-462, which sailed from France. Second, all boats were to replenish from the German tanker Brake in the Indian Ocean, then proceed to patrol areas. On the return voyage, the boats were to refuel again from Brake in the Indian Ocean and from another XIV U-tanker near the Azores on the final leg..

The U-462 mentioned was forced to abort his mission and therefore not could refuel the Monsun boats. This vital task was reasigned to the type XIV U-487 which sailed from France, but this U-tanker was lost before the refueling operation.

gap 05-03-20 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugermann (Post 2667896)
Yes, due the loss of a U-tanker.
Yes, definitely, I had forgot mentioning this part of the story, thank you for mentioning it!

Exception made for the Type XIV, no U-boat was meant to play the support role. But due to the small number of available U-tankers (and to the vulnerability inherent to their duties), in several occasions other U-boat types had to be used as stop-gap supply vessels.

skin-nl 05-05-20 01:22 PM
You did great work with the type XIV Vecko :up:


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