SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - [REL]The Wolves of Steel

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)

- SH5 Mods Workshop (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=249)

- - [REL]The Wolves of Steel - SH5 Megamod (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=210703)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kapuhy (Post 2679147)

Working on it

Looking great Kapuhy! :up::up::up:

Is there an associated underwater performance increase with removing the deck gun or is it just visual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by reedca82 (Post 2679802)

Is there an associated underwater performance increase with removing the deck gun or is it just visual?

Negative. Only conning towers have introduced drag factor.

Thanks for the response!

Quote:

Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2679967)

Negative. Only conning towers have introduced drag factor.

Hi Vecko, may I ask if there is any reason (other than lack of time and you being busy with other features) for the deck gun and other U-boat armaments not having drag factors implemented?

wpn_Cannon:

Additional_Drag_Coefs
- LR
- UD
- FR

Quote:

Originally Posted by gap (Post 2680033)

Additional_Drag_Coefs
- LR
- UD
- FR

Hey Gap, :salute:
No, nothing special really except that I don't think there were any noticeable performance benefit from the deck gun removal on type VII Uboat. From what I know the main reasons behind gun removal in late war years were totally different. They simply didn't have need for it any more...

Hello Sir, I am posting this reply just to confirm my question. I started campaing with 2.2.18 and advanced pretty much however I just noticed you released newer version of awesome TWoS mod. Even though you stated that

TWoS v2.2.9 AND LATER IS NOT GAMESAVE COMPATIBLE WITH PREVIOUS VERSIONS!
START NEW CAMPAIGN!

is is possible to update it to 2.2.19 without breaking compatibility?

And final question is just out of curiosity 2x to 2.2.18 patch is 118 mb however same patch with 2x to 2.2.19 is just 23 mb. Why there is a huge data gap between patches.
Thank you kind sir.:Kaleun_Salute:

Just got SH5 and downloaded TWos mod. Are any other mods compatible with it? If some are, any suggestions on which ones are worth getting? I don't want to get a mod that will interfere with TWos, and the front page says that some mods will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kavil (Post 2680128)

is is possible to update it to 2.2.19 without breaking compatibility?

Yes. Gamesaves are compatible all the way down to v2.2.10. :yep:

Quote:

And final question is just out of curiosity 2x to 2.2.18 patch is 118 mb however same patch with 2x to 2.2.19 is just 23 mb. Why there is a huge data gap between patches.
Thank you kind sir.:Kaleun_Salute:

v2.2.xx to v2.2.19 update is 131 MB in size...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iorwerth (Post 2680141)

There are very few of them. I strongly advise you to install custom mod only if it's author claims that it is fully compatible with TWoS 2.2.19. Anything less than that will only bring you problems, oddities and CTDs...:salute:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iorwerth (Post 2680141)

My boogies refit 3.0 complete is a graphics mod that will work with TWoS. If you use real navigation it will show a conflict because it contains 2 graphic files that make the pencil line on the map bolder, it will not break your game as far as I know. It also includes a preset for Reshade. If you use the KSD commander you might have to expieriment to get the reshade to work. It changes most of the textures in the inside and outside of the boat as well as some of the bunker textures, adds some tweaks to clouds and changes the optics. It also changes the uniforms. screenshots here:
https://imgur.com/gallery/viQB4no

Quote:

Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2680067)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Williamson

Although in the early part of the war U-boats often did use the deck gun to sink smaller enemy merchantmen in order to save precious (and highly expensive) torpedoes, as the war progressed and anti-submarine measures improved in effectiveness, few U-boat commanders would risk surfacing and remaining in position long enough to sink a ship using gunfire (sometimes dozens or even hundred of hits were required to sink a larger vessel). By 1943, most Type VII U-boats had their deck guns removed, which had the added benefit of reducing drag when underwater.

(from: U-boats vs Destroyer Escorts: The Battle of the Atlantic)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Williamson

[...] As the war progressed, it became clear that any benefits derived from the presence of the deck gun were offset by the increase in the drag inposed on the boat when moving underwater. By 1943, most deck guns had been removed from Type VIIs, but for some reason most Type IX boats retained theor 10.5 cm guns.

(from: Kriegsmarine U-boats 1939–45)

According to uboataces.com:

Quote:

Originally Posted by uboataces.com

The deck gun also contributed much to hydrodynamic resistance, slowing the underwater speed and increasing crash dive time.

According to David Owen:

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Owen

[...] Although her armament was formidable on paper, the flak-boat concept was flawed from the start. Apart from the increase in top-weight, which made her unstable in heavy seas, the additional guns and their protective shields added to the underwater drag. This not only cut boat's submerged speed but more seriously increased the time taken to dive [...].

(from: Anti-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History)

There is an interesting discussion on this same topic on Ubi's SH3 forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VikingGrandad

I've been digging around on the web for historical info on this subject. I've not found any defintitive figures, but it would seem that whilst late-war removal of the deck gun would result in a small increase in diving speed and submerged cruising speed, the addition of extra AA guns and wintergartens at that time would most likely offset this benefit.

In fact it seems possible that the extra AA guns and enlarged/additonal wintergarten platforms could create even more drag, especially if the AA guns had deflection shields. I think these shields were able to be folded away, but again this procedure would add to the dive time in an emergency.

My conclusions:

The deck gun had an adverse effect mostly on boat's diving times and submerged speed.
The same applies to conning-tower mounted FlaK guns, though the top-weight added by them was also detrimental to boat's general stability.
Being closer to boat's centre of buoyancy, the extra weight added by the deck gun had not an effect on her roll (i.e. LR drag) as bad as the conning-tower + FlaK guns block.
Unfortunately I don't think that, by only playing with gun's additional drag coefficients, we can decrease boat's submerged top speed, but we can worsen her seaworthiness with special emphasis on diving times.
Deck gun dismount should provide some benefits, in the form of improved boat handling, a renown bonus (if possible), or both, otherwise selecting the "no deck gun" boat upgrade won't make much sense from player's perspective.
The performance bonus from deck gun's removal shouldn't be so big to nullify the disadvantages given by bigger conning tower and additonal FlaK guns in mid war, but it should nonetheless be noticeable :yep:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gap (Post 2680290)

Hi Vecko, thank you for your answer and sorry for the late reply.

I wonder what are your sources on the topic, because all the information I have found so far seem to partly disconfirm your statements above.

According to Gordon Williamson:

(from: U-boats vs Destroyer Escorts: The Battle of the Atlantic)

(from: Kriegsmarine U-boats 1939–45)

According to uboataces.com:

According to David Owen:

(from: Anti-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History)

There is an interesting discussion on this same topic on Ubi's SH3 forum:

My conclusions:

The deck gun had an adverse effect mostly on boat's diving times and submerged speed.
The same applies to conning-tower mounted FlaK guns, though the top-weight added by them was also detrimental to boat's general stability.
Being closer to boat's centre of buoyancy, the extra weight added by the deck gun had not an effect on her roll (i.e. LR drag) as bad as the conning-tower + FlaK guns block.
Unfortunately I don't think that, by only playing with gun's additional drag coefficients, we can decrease boat's submerged top speed, but we can worsen her seaworthiness with special emphasis on diving times.
Deck gun dismount should provide some benefits, in the form of improved boat handling, a renown bonus (if possible), or both, otherwise selecting the "no deck gun" boat upgrade won't make much sense from player's perspective.
The performance bonus from deck gun's removal shouldn't be so big to nullify the disadvantages given by bigger conning tower and additonal FlaK guns in mid war, but it should nonetheless be noticeable :yep:

Thanks for detailed post as always Gap. :up: However you'll have to agree that we didn't learn anything new from those articles, what we couldn't conclude for our self. Yes "some" performance bonus is unquestioned but the main question still remains.How much? They all only use words like "much", "some" ect which is not very helpful IMO.:hmmm: Was it 1KN speed increase (which I really doubt) or maybe 0.1? 0.01? :hmm2:
The point is, we can not really conclude this without some complex mathematics and even then I believe that the resulting speed benefit would be quite minuscule. Introducing some small value like 0.05KN of speed increase would be quite silly IMO and probably unnoticed by many Subsim Captains. Not to mention potential army of unhappy weekend Captains with dozens of threads named "BUG! I removed my deck gun but my speed stays the same!!!!WHYYYYYY???!!!"

Unfortunately, other mentioned benefits like improved handling and diving times are not possible to simulate since they are controlled by completely different set of sim controllers...

Regarding U-boat's equipment...

I noticed that deployable decoys are not available (for example, in Mare Nostrum campaign).
Will this type of equipment be available in next chapters, or they're completely unavailable in TWOS ?

@Demon777

I was able to install BOLD 1, a decoy system, inside my boat before going into Operation Drumbeat, maybe near the end of the Western Approchases campaign chapter or when I was in the bunker before going to the US East Seaboard. I still have it on board, though I never use it because I haven't found a single convoy. I have found a few duets of ships. Usually a destroyer and a large freighter (Usually 6,000+ tons) I sink the destroyer first so I do not have to worried about being picked up on ASDIC. I always use electric torpedoes when I attack DDs.

I don't really have a use for it since I haven't found an escorted convoy, yet.

Currently, I am in Distant Waters and nearly done with the campaign chapter!

Farthest I've ever got with SH5.

Thanks for the awesome mod, Vecko! :Kaleun_Salute::yeah: