I can see the temptation in a) but I can't see the west falling for that, not when Russia has the ability to retun the favour three times over, although the encircling tactic is certainly true, but that mostly took place back when Russia was going through its Yeltsin phase and could barely afford to invade Serbia, let alone the Baltic states.

Radar and ELINT is also a fair point, but if that was the goal then the planned ABM radar system in Poland wouldn't have been shelved. :hmmm:

...That is not the issue at all.
I find it funny how people like to turn everything into those overmaster conspiracies.
Assuming there was CIA involvement it does not change the fact that there must had been great infrastructure for all this events to happen.
Weather such involvement is just or not is another issue but yes people love those ...and build entire reasoning upon this.
Assuming CIA was involved , the general disappointment with the Ukrainians about how the country is run must had been there for very long , otherwise it would not work.
The Ukrainians , not only the CIA agents...assuming there had been any.. went to the streets to face the corruption and poor living conditions - people want change.
When it comes to eastern Europe ; change , freedom or prosperity is still associated with the west...well...Skybirdy you may disagree lol
Russia on another hand with misery , so yes CIA may have had fertile ground there lol
Russia has nothing to offer really... yet..who knows...that is why its influence spans mostly on third world countries.


When it comes to western Ukraine it historically sees itself with Europe , not Russia.
The eastern part is mixed bunch , the ethnic Russians had nothing to lose but vote for Russia due to Russia having slightly better economy , naturally patriotic reasons must not be dismissed too.
I would not be surprised for California voting to join Mexico if economic situation reversed.:haha:
Mabe KGB can make it happen as it is....
As far as I know discrimination toward Russians is or at least was utter bollox and if it did happen it only further supports the fact about how Ukrainians disassociate themselves from Russia..contrary to some claims about Ukrainian hegemony vs western overlord messing with it
Yet it is most likely that with all that is going on right now the ugly side of ethnic issues will rise to the surface on both sides.
At the end of the day the longer this mess lasts the ugliest it may get.
As usual..regular folks will stay home and extremist roam and Putin gaining
legitimacy for more serious intervention.
The civilization part you guys play is very cool but it would be interesting to know what general people in Ukraine think about it all...
Not those nutty ones...there is nothing funnier and at the same time pathetic than Ukrainian uber nazi or skinhead.

MH has already explained it to you pretty well. I am not claiming there were no CIA agents in Ukraine, there's a few stationed at every embassy including Kiev I'm sure, but the idea that they paid a hundreds or thousands of agitators to create the whole movement that overthrew the previous government is complete balderdash.

Personally i'm kind of surprised that you seem so willing to swallow such obvious Russian propaganda Skybird.

I think that it's not that it is Russian propaganda, more that it is anti-American propaganda, which seems to be in vogue again in certain circles. :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27618681

:nope:

Alright, who out there is still not calling this a civil war? :/\\!!

A Ukrainian general is said to be one of the dead, quite a coup for the pro-Russian forces. Alleged sightings of Vostok battalion forces in Donetsk as well, with some tensions supposedly between them and the pro-Russians already in the area. Could be that Putin is looking to the Vostok forces to regain control over the pro-Russian militia.

All unconfirmed, of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an urge to "regain control" or at least do some damage-control as far as the Donetsk militias go. Even in Russia, there's been some rather compromising imagery circulating (for posting which a blogger was arrested), showing an undated photo of the heads of the rebellion wearing uniforms with Swastikas, while the Chechen president Kadyrov has been denying just a little too loudly that there's any Chechen fighters among the militia...

My sense is that there is fear even among the Russian elites that, for all their pro-Russian-ness, the current leaders of the rebellion are starting to be seen as a bit extreme. Not the kinds of people one wants to support - then again, it'd be nothing new; recall the enthusiasm with which the West got behind some of the Lybian and Syrian anti-government militias, only to recoil later when they turned out to have hardcore Islamists among them.

There are extreme rightwingers active on both sides, which makes the Eastern claim to have risen because of the need to defend against the fascists in the Western government (Swoboda) a formally correct but somewhat toothless argument.

For the Kremlin, if it avoids to get drawn in by the Eastern extremists and resists taking the Eastern provinces, this is a comfortable position, it then can leave the Ukraine to being eaten up from within by TWO most extreme camps both with even more extremist rightwing factions. A Ukraine busy with itself and its own internal battles is a Ukraine unable to meet criteria for EU membership and unable to set up challenges to Moscow.

Quatsch. Better stop stockpiling your own truckloads of propaganda. I am not basing on Russian sources here, but I take Russian perspectives into account. But for heavily biased onesided pro-Americans doin g that already is too much.

MH you call an explanation? I saw his remarks as some highly subjective descriptions of an image that is much bigger than the one he tried to paint.

My general advise would be to look at the Ukraine crisis without allowing emotions and pro-Western, anti-Russian prejudices distorting the thinking of your mind. If that qualifies for Oberonic interpretations of "Anti-Americanism", then I proudly confess guilty.

You keep sticking your nose in the official press all the time, August. And I'm kind of amazed everytime I notice you (and a lot of other people coming from your country and the West I met on other forums) think you're living in "the country of freedom", that's almost touching ; and to say that the world has been thinking you live in that country of freedom, while any propaganda is supposed to come only from Russia, China, Iran or whatever...

I swear it's just unbelievable how much the inhabitants of that large country being the world champion in terms of bombing and war crime atrocities still think they have any credibility on this kind of issues you're talking about. Not even trying to sound harsh or disrespectful, just being honest there.

Since the Afghanistan war against the Soviets, many autors revealed the role of the US in financing international terrorism, you know. It was all just not recognized by Washington. And it happens that a decisive step was taken against Syria last february, in fact : the congress voted for the funding of 2 organisations representing Alkaida.
You could say that what was an open secret until then suddenly changed into the official policy of the country of freedom : terrorism.

According to the western media, that conflict in the Middle East takes place between 1. countries gathered around Washington and Saudi Arabia pretending to defend democracy and lead the global fight against terrorism... And 2. Syria and her russian allies, being discredited in western propaganda as countries using terrorism to achieve their goals, or something like that.
Now everyone knows how much SA is not really a democracy, but much more an absolute monarchy one could describe without any praise. Yet the US want to appear as a democracy, and want to be recognized as the country of freedom, if I'm not mistaken.
And it happens that this country of freedom didn't hear much about that news related to the congress meeting secretly to vote "yes" to the funding of bringing weapons to syrian rebels until next september, eh. Yes, you read it well, that bloody congress of yours meets secretly now and then and the national american press is kind of not allowed to mention it. That's why that info published by the british agency Reuters was willingly let aside by the american newspapers and television, and all western media in Europe too. Only the rest of the world has got to hear about that in the news, obviously.
Yet freedom of expression and the right of citizen to informations may well be some important principles in a democracy, I think most agree with that. In that case, human rights are respected in Russia and Syria more than in the West, hehe.

And now people will tell me "hey man, does the fact the united states of America are world champions in that area makes Russians look like total angels for that matter" ? :hmm2:
Of course not, no one ever told this kind of thing. Wherever it's committed, and whoever is responsible for it, a massacre is and will always remain a massacre, even if the torturer is not the united states of America. True : some people fall into idolatry when it comes to Vladimir Putin to the point they deny his past and recent crimes in Chechnya and stuff like that.
True. But still, there's a big difference between the united states of America and Russia : Putin is not the one hammering home the message that Russia is a democracy and that everyone of his acts are driven by human-rightsism, so he's more honest than the West and Israel in that area. Putin fairly admits he's standing up for the interests of Russia, and that is why state interventions of that country don't go beyond Russia's border. Unlike the Americans and the British on all five continents.

Other than that : check this out a little bit if you have some time. Politically oriented ? It is, just like most news you read and watch everyday. :03:

Russia, Belarus and Kasachstan have signed a treaty that is seen as the starting shot for an economy union that enhances the existing customs union. Kirgisia and Tajikistan are to follow. Originally, Ukraine was planned by Moscow to join as well.

Economically, this new union for the forseeable future will have not much potency, but that is not the point anyway. It's real main purpose is is the forming of a new united currency that will rival Euro and Dollar. This should be seen in combination with the new warming of Russian-Chinese relations, the latest deal between the two, China's strategy to get rid of the dollar as well and talks about forming a Russian-Asian economy sphere - again with the main purpose to get rid of the dollar.

Prohibition to do certain key deals of economics (especially oil and gas) in dollar currency, will be the next step. Which will make OPEC think about abandoning the dollar-link, too - necessarily.

Since the cure to the financial disaster haunting the West and the globe necessarily is the collapse of the current fiscal system and the rule of Dollar and Europe, I de facto - and without favouring any political ideology here - welcome these steps. When the destruction of Euro and Dollar (with all the mayhem that will bring) nevertheless is not only necessary, but inevitable anyway - why protracting it, then? Th em ore time China is being given to prepare this step, the stronger it will become from it. So better is to have it happening early, so that their gain is as small as possible.

It's the almost gleeful way that you hoover up pro-Russian media, then tell others to not be biased which confuses me. :hmmm:

You just need to stand far enough on the one side of a crowd, then all others appear to stand on the other side.

Even those standing in the middle, or not caring for sides.

The Western standpoint in all this is extremely emotional, and leaves plenty to be desired in cold blood, and reason. And that is why everybody not sharing the hot-blooded sentiments appears to be "pro-Russian" for the sake of being pro-Russian. I am not. I understand that Russia's perspective and interests are not what the West wants it to define as, and I understand how twisted the Western views are, on so many levels. Any Wetsern attempt to define Russia'S interests, are not Russia'S interests, but the West'S interests. That is what Washington, and others, notoriously lie about.

That's enough to make me a heretic, and "anti-American". In fact I am neither a friend of the political actor called USA, nor of Russia. And my country suffers more financial and economic damages from acts and policies run by America, than of Russia or China (due to dollar and espionage).

You have to forgive, but the times I saw America as a natural ally who stands beyond doubt and only acts on behalf of all that is of goodness and of light in the world, are long since over. I remind of Jack Kornblum, former ambassador of the US to Germany, who put it best some months ago: "We are no friends, we are partners. Nations have no friendships, nations have interests." And this partner in some issues, rival in others, enemy in some, that the US is for Germany today, is talking as split-tongued acts as conspiratory and plays as dirty as any other nation there is. No sign of holiness anywhere. America is no moral compass for the world anymore. And one could ask if it ever was - maybe it was more an utopia than a reality.

I prefer that sober view of things any time to the pathetic and sentimental babbling that politicians give you when they hold a summit and smile into the cameras. It took Kornblum the resignation from all his official obligations before he came up with that simple truth from his lips. I can only advise everybody: take the man by his words.

I am gleeful in one aspect, however, and I do not hide it: I like to see the EU's narcissistic follies exploding into its face.

After all, I too am just human. :smug: