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-   -   Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209742)

ikalugin 02-20-17 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 2467540)
Counter productive to the Russians trying carve up their country. And what you are calling "Ukrainian political activists" is in reality the government of that nation whose internal affairs you are interfering in.

You misunderstand.

First of all, those political activists do not operate with the authority of the official Kiev, but with the silent consent of it and are separate from the said authority.

Secondly such policies are counter productive to Kiev's interests, because the people in the regions blockaded become more dissatisfied with Kiev regime, as they are denied basic services, for example electric power supply.

An example of the later would be political activists blowing up powerlines into Crimea (and cutting off some Kiev held areas in the process). You can refresh those events in your memory by reading this article (or other articles on the topic):
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/23/w...ectricity.html
There were also cuts in food supplies from Kiev held regions into Crimea, those deliveries (just like electric power) were later replaced by deliveries from Russia, hurting both the Kiev's support base in Crimea and Ukrainian buisnesses.

Nowadays those same activists block raillines, including the coal supplies from Donbas to Ukraine (and food supplies from Ukraine to Donbas, same thing as they did in Crimea, I have linked an article above regarding growth of Russian food exports into Donbas), which lead to the Kiev Goverment enacting a state of emergency:
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/403457.html

August 02-20-17 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin (Post 2467542)
You misunderstand.

First of all, those political activists do not operate with the authority of the official Kiev, but with the silent consent of it and are separate from the said authority.

That makes no sense. If they have the consent of official Kiev, silent or not, then they are not separate from said authority.

Quote:

Secondly such policies are counter productive to Kiev's interests, because the people in the regions blockaded become more dissatisfied with Kiev regime, as they are denied basic services, for example electric power supply.

An example of the later would be political activists blowing up powerlines into Crimea (and cutting off some Kiev held areas in the process). You can refresh those events in your memory by reading this article (or other articles on the topic):
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/23/w...ectricity.html
There were also cuts in food supplies from Kiev held regions into Crimea, those deliveries (just like electric power) were later replaced by deliveries from Russia, hurting both the Kiev's support base in Crimea and Ukrainian buisnesses.

Nowadays those same activists block raillines, including the coal supplies from Donbas to Ukraine (and food supplies from Ukraine to Donbas, same thing as they did in Crimea, I have linked an article above regarding growth of Russian food exports into Donbas), which lead to the Kiev Goverment enacting a state of emergency:
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/403457.html
It's all just so convenient to Moscow's interests and so detrimental to Kiev's that it makes me wonder who these "political activists" really work for.

Time will tell what happens but when the dust finally settles i'll bet this ends up with Mother Russia expanding her borders again and it'll bet the Pravda will be that it was all Kievs fault. Just like it was all their fault that Moscow was forced to seize the Crimea. Just like it was the Georgians fault that Moscow was forced to invade their country although those breakaway regions are technically "independent".

Oberon 02-20-17 08:59 PM

There do seem to be a lot of...fortunate accidents...when it comes to Moscow. Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

Catfish 02-21-17 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2467743)
There do seem to be a lot of...fortunate accidents...when it comes to Moscow. Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

There are also russian critics of Putin or his policies within the motherland having a "hard time," if you do not see poisoning and physical threatening as a pledge of frindship :03:

Oberon 02-21-17 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish (Post 2467769)
There are also russian critics of Putin or his policies within the motherland having a "hard time," if you do not see poisoning and physical threatening as a pledge of frindship :03:

No, no, they just fell down some stairs...All of them... :03:

ikalugin 02-21-17 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 2467730)
That makes no sense. If they have the consent of official Kiev, silent or not, then they are not separate from said authority.

It's all just so convenient to Moscow's interests and so detrimental to Kiev's that it makes me wonder who these "political activists" really work for.

Official Kiev lacks monopoly on the use of violence.

You get the real horror stories about the volonteer battalions, such as Tornado battalion (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-uk...0Q30YT20150729 http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimina...talion/5458575)

Then there are much more mundane situations, where Right Sector fights with the local authorities in Western Ukraine over the lucrative smugling ventures (which are controlled by those authorities) or police back up teams rescuing their comrades cought looting by security (security was murdered).

As to who they serve - they serve themselves. For example back when they blockaded Crimea one of the intentions was to gain control over the flow of food supplies. By blocking access of Ukrainian suppliers they were planning to force them to use their services as middlemen (and thus by basically driving the stuff over the border and reselling it to Crimean buyers right south of the border).

But yes, you are right in a way, they all call each other "agents of Putin".

Jimbuna 02-21-17 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2467743)
There do seem to be a lot of...fortunate accidents...when it comes to Moscow. Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish (Post 2467769)
There are also russian critics of Putin or his policies within the motherland having a "hard time," if you do not see poisoning and physical threatening as a pledge of frindship :03:

Well, as I've posted on this forum before.......Putin in the simplest of terms is nothing more than a democratically elected dictator.

Catfish 02-21-17 06:51 AM

^ Very true.

"While typically not traceable to any individuals and plausibly denied by government officials, poisonings leave little doubt of the state’s involvement — which may be precisely the point."

The point it proves is that the russian government obviously feels the need for such methods, because they are not able to silence critics otherwise.
Another point they prove with it is, that the government is wrong and undemocratic.

" ... Used extensively in the Soviet era, political murders are again playing a prominent role in the Kremlin’s foreign policy, the most brutal instrument in an expanding repertoire of intimidation tactics intended to silence or otherwise intimidate critics at home and abroad."

And the parliamant officially supports that:

"No other major power employs murder as systematically and ruthlessly as Russia does against those seen as betraying its interests abroad. Killings outside Russia were even given legal sanction by the nation’s Parliament in 2006."

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/w...ison.html?_r=0


Not that other nations have not used those methods in certain cases here and there, but this has a special quality, and quantity.

ikalugin 02-21-17 07:12 AM

Thread derailed :)

That said, Ukrainian authorities are known to go above and beyond, with people shooting themselves three times in the back, with their hands cuffed and firearm taken.

Bilge_Rat 02-21-17 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish (Post 2467802)


Not that other nations have not used those methods in certain cases here and there, but this has a special quality, and quantity.

well that is not really true, you have had several murders of pro-Russian politicians/journalists in Ukraine since 2014. i.e.:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/17/europe...ical-killings/

no one has ever been charged, but many observers seem to think it is right wing groups acting either with the tacit consent of the Ukrainian government or under their orders.

The Poroshenko governemnt pointed the finger at Russia, but it is not plausible to believe the Russians would kill their own supporters just to embarass the Ukrainian government.

ikalugin 02-21-17 11:59 AM

Yes, political activists block justice. For example they openly pressure courts or block courts from operating - the best example in my opinion was when they blocked the transfer of people, who were accused of shooting at Maidan protestors from getting to the court, when Yanukovich was testifying as a witness.

There was also a new interesting technology deployed by Ukrainians. What is it? It is a database of undesirables with their personal data (home adress, work place etc). The database is publically viewable and is run by the state affiliated people (aid to the minister for internal affairs for example).

Later vigilantees murder those undesirables. Fortunately western journalists, who got themselves into that database, evacuated before they were murdered.

Oberon 02-21-17 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin (Post 2467810)
Thread derailed :)

That said, Ukrainian authorities are known to go above and beyond, with people shooting themselves three times in the back, with their hands cuffed and firearm taken.

Two wrongs do not make a right. :03:

ikalugin 02-21-17 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2467868)
Two wrongs do not make a right. :03:

Double standards, that is all.

Plus we have a lot to learn from their activies. That "Peacekeer" webiste idea was genious. You can begin with it's wiki article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets

Oberon 02-24-17 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2467743)
Well, unless you happen to be an ambassador, poor sods are really having a tough time of it at the moment.

And another one goes. Becoming a bit like living in the same geographical location as Jessica Fletcher.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38560438

ikalugin 03-07-17 01:59 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04v48h7

Poor Arseniy, he was not prepared for this, he contradicts himself in the interview and the journalist wrecks him.

They go into the question of blockade from the get go - August, you may find it interesting somewhat.

ikalugin 03-13-17 08:13 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs5WiHyLdps
Activists are walling in the entrance to a Sberbank-Ukraine branch in Kiev. Sberbank-Ukraine is a subsidiery of a Russian bank - Sberbank and holds about 8 percent of the deposits of Ukrainian population. Sberbank may consider voiding such deposits due to the events of irresistable force.


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